Prosperity Sermons

[envybeauty]

I see nothing wrong with that. If a church is making a LOAN (and not an outright gift), they should not throw judgment aside. Why give someone a loan if it shows that they cannot pay it back. If she was tithing 10%, and her 10% amounted to show her as possibly earning only $25,000 a year, why loan her $25,000 that she will not be able to pay back.

I wouldn't cast judgment on the church that did that as we don't know all the facts about her request.

Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?

A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.

And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway). My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.

 

[CurleeDST]

Hi RelaxerRehab - I was not speaking to anyone specifically when I put the statement out there about getting defensive, snarky, etc. I was anticipating it from anyone participating in this discussion and wante to put it out there, that the reason for bringing this up was not to act as a "troll" or to stir up stuff but to have sincere and healthy dialogue.

I know religion/faith/spirituality stirs up passion in believers and likely so - it shapes our paradigm, lifestyle and day-to-day activities. My statement was my attempt at preempting this discussion taking a turn for the worst which is not what this is or should be about.

So no, it was not aimed at you so no need to explain anything....let's keep it going. I think this discussion is good.



QUOTE=RelaxerRehab;4152439]The church should not LEND to anyone.

Hopefully a church is seeking the Lord for direction about such matters on a case-by-case basis and seek to help. But the members should not be sacrificed for someone who is not a member, or, particularly if they belong to another church.

And with regard to the point about being defensive, snarky, or impatient: one disadvantage of the internet is that it is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL communication channel. There does not exist the combination of verbal tone and non-verbals (body language). Sometimes my passion gets misinterpreted as condescension or malice. I sincerely say here that it is NEITHER of those. Yes, I can use strong words, but I don't call anybody out of their name or demean their character. When a conversation and courageous conversation happens from a place of love and not malice, we're helping one another.

The Bible says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17). In other words, through our (collective) dialogue, we learn and grow stronger in the faith and we grow stronger to discern and combat contrary spirits.[/QUOTE]

 

[PaperClip]

So what of the ones who did not struggle to get their job, their home, their child, etc.? What happened to them? Why not trial for them if it is necessary as part of the faith walk?

There exist today those who struggle for x, and those who did not struggle for the same x.

Who's to say who struggled or not? More than one person has said to me that school does not seem to be a struggle to me! Huh? They are not sitting at the laptop next to me as I agonize over writing a paper, or studying for a test.

Who's to say who is struggling or not. More than one person has said to me that it seems like I'm content being a single Christian, a virgin at that, with no sexual struggles? (Don't make me cuss!) They don't know how I lay in my bed alone sweating and crying all night from the loneliness for a mate. For the lack of companionship. The want of a touch, a hug, a caress, a kiss, from my husband.

Who is anyone to measure the struggle of another person's situation? NO ONE!!!!!!!!

That's why when we go through our trials, we are to be THANKFUL IN the trial, not FOR the trial. That's why you (general) can't talk to everybody about everything.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.... There's a cost. I'm telling you what I know from DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

 

[Southernbella.]

Oh, for a loan, I think they do have to use discernment. Maybe they looked at her tithing as a bill that she isn't paying regularly. I'm not sure why a church is lending money, though. Do they have a credit union?

Benevolence is something different, though.

 

[PaperClip]

Hi RelaxerRehab - I was not speaking to anyone specifically when I put the statement out there about getting defensive, snarky, etc. I was anticipating it from anyone participating in this discussion and wante to put it out there, that the reason for bringing this up was not to act as a "troll" or to stir up stuff but to have sincere and healthy dialogue.

I know religion/faith/spirituality stirs up passion in believers and likely so - it shapes our paradigm, lifestyle and day-to-day activities. My statement was my attempt at preempting this discussion taking a turn for the worst which is not what this is or should be about.

So no, it was not aimed at you so no need to explain anything....let's keep it going. I think this discussion is good.



QUOTE=RelaxerRehab;4152439]The church should not LEND to anyone.

Hopefully a church is seeking the Lord for direction about such matters on a case-by-case basis and seek to help. But the members should not be sacrificed for someone who is not a member, or, particularly if they belong to another church.

And with regard to the point about being defensive, snarky, or impatient: one disadvantage of the internet is that it is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL communication channel. There does not exist the combination of verbal tone and non-verbals (body language). Sometimes my passion gets misinterpreted as condescension or malice. I sincerely say here that it is NEITHER of those. Yes, I can use strong words, but I don't call anybody out of their name or demean their character. When a conversation and courageous conversation happens from a place of love and not malice, we're helping one another.

The Bible says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17). In other words, through our (collective) dialogue, we learn and grow stronger in the faith and we grow stronger to discern and combat contrary spirits.

[/quote]

I appreciate you saying this. And at the same time, I felt it right after I posted that....

 

[envybeauty]

A friend of mine got laid off from her job. She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies. Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission. In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below). So, fast forward to about a year later. She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family. A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview. Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday. FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!

She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord. Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city. She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.

My own friend, who knows what it is like to struggle through a situation, said to me that she herself was amazed at how relatively EASY everything has been so far. She agreed with what I told her priorto.

I stand by my belief that not everyone is meant to struggle through all situations in life. In some areas of my life, I too can testify that I have had no struggles with the paricular line of blessing I have received. Especially when I had no knowledge beforehand as to what I was getting into. In other areas, I am struggling. Even after reading book after book, talking to person after person, and praying about it regularly. Struggles. I know a struggle.

Who's to say who struggled or not? More than one person has said to me that school does not seem to be a struggle to me! Huh? They are not sitting at the laptop next to me as I agonize over writing a paper, or studying for a test.

Who's to say who is struggling or not. More than one person has said to me that it seems like I'm content being a single Christian, a virgin at that, with no sexual struggles? (Don't make me cuss!) They don't know how I lay in my bed alone sweating and crying all night from the loneliness for a mate. For the lack of companionship. The want of a touch, a hug, a caress, a kiss, from my husband.

Who is anyone to measure the struggle of another person's situation? NO ONE!!!!!!!!

That's why when we go through our trials, we are to be THANKFUL IN the trial, not FOR the trial. That's why you (general) can't talk to everybody about everything.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.... There's a cost. I'm telling you what I know from DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

 

[Southernbella.]

A friend of mine got laid off from her job. She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies. Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission. In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below). So, fast forward to about a year later. She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family. A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview. Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday. FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!

She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord. Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city. She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.

My own friend, who knows what it is like to struggle through a situation, said to me that she herself was amazed at how relatively EASY everything has been so far. She agreed with what I told her priorto.

I stand by my belief that not everyone is meant to struggle through all situations in life. In some areas of my life, I too can testify that I have had no struggles with the paricular line of blessing I have received. Especially when I had no knowledge beforehand as to what I was getting into. In other areas, I am struggling. Even after reading book after book, talking to person after person, and praying about it regularly. Struggles. I know a struggle.

This post speaks to a lot of the issues I've had in my own walk. I used to be so confused (my own confusion, not because of anyone else).

I didn't understand...if God wants you to have something, then you won't have to struggle for it. Therefore, if I find myself struggling and working too hard, then maybe it wasn't meant for me to have it.

I gave up on quite a few things in life because of this mentality. I've since changed my way of thinking on that.

I now think there are plenty of things that God wants you to have, or that God doesn't mind you having, but the path isn't always laid out for you directly. I also think I used to obsess over consulting God on every.single.detail.

I truly believe that God has given me the tools I need to have whatever I desire, as long as it doesn't interfere with my walk or cause me to put that thing before God in my heart.

Think about it...do you (general) consult with God about what you will eat for lunch? Whether to stop for gas now or later? Whether to wear your hair up or down? What toothpaste to use? These things seem inconsequential to us humans, but we like to consult with God about the "big" things. Who of us can really say what God considers a big thing?

God has given us wisdom, discernment, and the Holy Sprit. Sometimes the path will be clear, and sometimes you will have to struggle and work hard. It doesn't mean that God was any more or less involved with the process.

This, for me, ties into the prosperity stuff. I think many times we pray and ask God for things that He has already given us the tools to get ourselves. We pray and wait, pray and wait, and while we're praying and waiting for our "breakthrough", our neighbor has gone out and gotten a part time job to save up and buy the house he wants.

While some people are bringing their bills to a debt cancelation service and waiting for God to show up, others are calling their credit card companies to get lower rates so that they can pay their debt off.

 

[PinkPebbles]

I guess you (general) can call discernment nit-picking if you (general) want, but the truth is, when God shows you something, and you KNOW it's God, then you have to make a decision. There are always going to be people who don't see it the same. God showed me something a year before he showed my mother, and she argued me up and down about it until I left it alone. God showed her a year later. She called me out of the blue and said that she felt someone had lifted a veil from her eyes.

I know there are people who saw it years before I did. Everyone is at a different place in their walk, so I think it's logical that people are going to receive this thread in many different ways.

lauren450- very well said! There were some things that I could not see that others were trying to tell me in the past; but in God's perfect timing the veil was lifted off of my eyes.
By the way- I believe we went to the same church in GA...so I can relate to a lot of things you mentioned in this thread. I realize that people did not experience all of the same things so their perspective will be different.
I witnessed first hand people praying, demanding and declaring that they upgrade their benz because they are a child of God. When the pastor was telling everyone that he doesn't want his congregation renting anymore, I was around 22 years old. They even had a sign posted in the church reminding us to be 100% homeowners. I was not seasoned in the word and at that particular time I was about to do something foolish. I was about to purchase a home that I could not afford at the time. By the grace of God I purchased a home a couple of years later that was in my budget. Unfortunately, a friend of mine purchased a home and she had to file bankruptcy to get out of it.
A lot of things may sound bizarre to many and if I didn't experience this type of teaching first hand, i would think it's ludicrous too. People should have a mind of their own but in most cases that's not always the case. I was not raised in a church, my parents were but they no longer attended. I did not have a foundation so it's possible to be caught up and led astray. But God is merciful, I have a heart after Him and He continuously keeps me in the palm of His hands.

 

[envybeauty]

The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.

There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes. The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.

At my old church, the preacher talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home. Every Sunday. He wanted people to set aside 20% of their income for those two purposes: tithing and saving.

At one service, he commented about it. He said, in other neighborhoods, like in Harlem, Black folks are being kicked out. Simply because they do not own where they live. Without property rights, people have no say so about their rights to stay or go. Black folks in Harlem up in arms about the gentrification process and about Blacks not being able to stay in Harlem much longer (many anyway). It is true. Harlem is changing RAPIDLY. Before, it was rare to see a white person anywhere near 125th Street. Now, they are as high north as 145th street and moving even farther north.

The other pastor commented that what is going on in Harlem cannot happen in his neighborhood simply because he has been preaching to his congregation that they need to look into home ownership. Most the black people surrounding his church own their homes or other property that they rent out. Even that church indirectly owns several developments (senior's home, apartments, school, storefronts, etc.).

I see his point.

The church I attend is always telling the congragation about a mortgage that it wants to pay off...that if they could pay it off early, they would save a lot (almost .5 million) in interest alone that could be put towards church services, etc. I'm all for that.

But what about the majority of people there who don't own a home. Why not encourage them to also buy their own property so that they have something and aer not throwing away their money month after month. Many in that church do not know the value of home ownership because for GENERATIONS their families have always rented (never owned) their homes. So they have nothing in their old age (but yet another rent payment) or even to pass on to their kids. Many of them will have to find somewhere else to live because gentrification will affect them as well.

Should I address this with my church?

 

[PinkPebbles]

The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.

There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes. The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.

At my old church, the preacher talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home. Every Sunday. He wanted people to set aside 20% of their income for those two purposes: tithing and saving.

At one service, he commented about it. He said, in other neighborhoods, like in Harlem, Black folks are being kicked out. Simply because they do not own where they live. Without property rights, people have no say so about their rights to stay or go. Black folks in Harlem up in arms about the gentrification process and about Blacks not being able to stay in Harlem much longer (many anyway). It is true. Harlem is changing RAPIDLY. Before, it was rare to see a white person anywhere near 125th Street. Now, they are as high north as 145th street and moving even farther north.

The other pastor commented that what is going on in Harlem cannot happen in his neighborhood simply because he has been preaching to his congregation that they need to look into home ownership. Most the black people surrounding his church own their homes or other property that they rent out. Even that church indirectly owns several developments (senior's home, apartments, school, storefronts, etc.).

I see his point.

The church I attend is always telling the congragation about a mortgage that it wants to pay off...that if they could pay it off early, they would save a lot (almost .5 million) in interest alone that could be put towards church services, etc. I'm all for that.

But what about the majority of people there who don't own a home. Why not encourage them to also buy their own property so that they have something and aer not throwing away their money month after month. Many in that church do not know the value of home ownership because for GENERATIONS their families have always rented (never owned) their homes. So they have nothing in their old age (but yet another rent payment) or even to pass on to their kids. Many of them will have to find somewhere else to live because gentrification will affect them as well.

Should I address this with my church?

I see where you are coming from...I believe it's great to want to own a home and it definitely comes with great benefits. That's why I own. But my point is that there is a time and a season for everything. Everyone is not ready to purchase a home during the same time frame and that should be perfectly okay. So it's important to teach people to save and educate them before they go into something blindly and regret it. That's the key...and you pointed that out " "He talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home.

 

[Southernbella.]

The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.

There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes. The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.

At my old church, the preacher talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home. Every Sunday. He wanted people to set aside 20% of their income for those two purposes: tithing and saving.

At one service, he commented about it. He said, in other neighborhoods, like in Harlem, Black folks are being kicked out. Simply because they do not own where they live. Without property rights, people have no say so about their rights to stay or go. Black folks in Harlem up in arms about the gentrification process and about Blacks not being able to stay in Harlem much longer (many anyway). It is true. Harlem is changing RAPIDLY. Before, it was rare to see a white person anywhere near 125th Street. Now, they are as high north as 145th street and moving even farther north.

The other pastor commented that what is going on in Harlem cannot happen in his neighborhood simply because he has been preaching to his congregation that they need to look into home ownership. Most the black people surrounding his church own their homes or other property that they rent out. Even that church indirectly owns several developments (senior's home, apartments, school, storefronts, etc.).

I see his point.

The church I attend is always telling the congragation about a mortgage that it wants to pay off...that if they could pay it off early, they would save a lot (almost .5 million) in interest alone that could be put towards church services, etc. I'm all for that.

But what about the majority of people there who don't own a home. Why not encourage them to also buy their own property so that they have something and aer not throwing away their money month after month. Many in that church do not know the value of home ownership because for GENERATIONS their families have always rented (never owned) their homes. So they have nothing in their old age (but yet another rent payment) or even to pass on to their kids. Many of them will have to find somewhere else to live because gentrification will affect them as well.

Should I address this with my church?

Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.

Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?

PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state. Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.

 

[PinkPebbles]

Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.

Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?

PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state. Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.[/quote]

Yes, and that is disheartening. I agree that all the blame should not be placed on the church. However, if Pastor's are going to minister and want their congregation to own homes, I pray that the members are well educated and informed about down payments, understanding different types of loans, having a savings, the responsibility with maintenance on the home etc. It's so many factors involved with purchasing a home. I hope that each individual is not rushed but made sure that was the right decision for THEM and not based on what other people are doing.

 

[WhipEffectz1]

Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.

Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?

PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state. Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.

I'm feeling this whole post!!!!!

 

[envybeauty]

Good points. The church should have thought twice about taking out that mortgage and not everyone has enough to set aside 20% every paycheck.

I see where you are coming from...I believe it's great to want to own a home and it definitely comes with great benefits. That's why I own. But my point is that there is a time and a season for everything. Everyone is not ready to purchase a home during the same time frame and that should be perfectly okay. So it's important to teach people to save and educate them before they go into something blindly and regret it. That's the key...and you pointed that out " "He talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home.

Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.

Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?

PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state. Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.

 

[PaperClip]

A friend of mine got laid off from her job. She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies. Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission. In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below). So, fast forward to about a year later. She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family. A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview. Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday. FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!

She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord. Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city. She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.

My own friend, who knows what it is like to struggle through a situation, said to me that she herself was amazed at how relatively EASY everything has been so far. She agreed with what I told her priorto.

I stand by my belief that not everyone is meant to struggle through all situations in life. In some areas of my life, I too can testify that I have had no struggles with the paricular line of blessing I have received. Especially when I had no knowledge beforehand as to what I was getting into. In other areas, I am struggling. Even after reading book after book, talking to person after person, and praying about it regularly. Struggles. I know a struggle.

Agree with the bolded statement.

At the same time, as you said by your friend's own admission, the perception of struggle is in the eye of the beholder.

There are several biblical examples where people struggled to obtain the promise, had to struggle to make a decision, to resist temptation and sin. Some struggles are self-inflicted. Some struggles are divinely purposed.

For me, the measure of something being "meant" for me (from the Lord) is not (necessarily) measured by the struggle/process, but in the outcome/result, based on this scripture:

Proverbs 10:22: "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it."

Same verse in Amplified: "22The blessing of the Lord--it makes [truly] rich, and He adds no sorrow with it [neither does toiling increase it]."

This is in ANY SITUATION, an apartment, car, relationship, job, church, etc. It ought to be more good than bad.

 

[CurleeDST]

I remember when my church was saving to build our new building dissenters picketed outside the church EVERY SUNDAY for a good YEAR straight, rain, sun or shine. Asking our Reverand where was the "STEAL" for the new church.

In the end the picketers went away b/c ground was broken and the church went up and that is where we have main service every Sunday. Our pastor is the FIRST to tell you to not follow him and follow GOD.

Yes there are ministries helping to educate the congregation of finances, marriage, womanhood, manhood, etc. and I think all of that is great!

I simply can not get with those teachings constantly focused on getting "things" without also balancing it with the sacrifices that will accompany the gains. I can't get with constant sermons talking about folks "talking about you". Who cares what man thinks in the end it is was God thinks. So why even preach on it? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[PaperClip]

I remember when my church was saving to build our new building dissenters picketed outside the church EVERY SUNDAY for a good YEAR straight, rain, sun or shine. Asking our Reverand where was the "STEAL" for the new church.

In the end the picketers went away b/c ground was broken and the church went up and that is where we have main service every Sunday. Our pastor is the FIRST to tell you to not follow him and follow GOD.

Yes there are ministries helping to educate the congregation of finances, marriage, womanhood, manhood, etc. and I think all of that is great!

I simply can not get with those teachings constantly focused on getting "things" without also balancing it with the sacrifices that will accompany the gains. I can't get with constant sermons talking about folks "talking about you". Who cares what man thinks in the end it is was God thinks. So why even preach on it? Doesn't make sense to me.

Are you serious? That would NEVER happen at my church. First of all, we joke that our deacons are LOOKING for a (righteous) fight and two, those "dissenters" were OUT OF ORDER and operating in DISOBEDIENCE.

The bible says if you have an ought with your brother (including the pastor), you're supposed to go to that person and get it worked out PRIVATELY. If they don't hear you, you go back with another party and if they don't hear you a second time, you take it to the church body. I know there's scripture for this....

The Lord is not pleased by the usurping of authority. God is a god of order.

 

[envybeauty]

I agree with that -- more good than bad has to take place with anything.

That was how I knew my church was meant for me. I have not had any struggles with it thus far --- no struggle finding parking (and there is little to no parking near this church). No struggle in being late due to traffic. No struggle with meeting with pastors. I look for signs like that -- am I fighting some sort of battle to get through with what I want and if I am, maybe that thing is not for me.

My own little quirk.

Proverbs 10:22: "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it."

Same verse in Amplified: "22The blessing of the Lord--it makes [truly] rich, and He adds no sorrow with it [neither does toiling increase it]."

This is in ANY SITUATION, an apartment, car, relationship, job, church, etc. It ought to be more good than bad.

 

[PaperClip]

I agree with that -- more good than bad has to take place with anything.

That was how I knew my church was meant for me. I have not had any struggles with it thus far --- no struggle finding parking (and there is little to no parking near this church). No struggle in being late due to traffic. No struggle with meeting with pastors. I look for signs like that -- am I fighting some sort of battle to get through with what I want and if I am, maybe that thing is not for me.

My own little quirk.

That's good.... but allow me to ask this question: how would you process/deal with it if struggles did pop up in any of these areas? Would you consider it a trial, a test of your faith, or a "sign" that it is time for you to leave that church?

Remember, Job's life was peachy keen until the enemy went to the Lord God and ASKED if he could affect Job. The Lord allowed it, except not to touch his soul.... Job didn't have full understanding as to why such things were happening to him...and his friends weren't much help....

Dr. MLK said it well here: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

[envybeauty]

I find that a struggle is more to have me move on to the next place of comfort. Comfort does not last forever and sometimes you need to feel the spring in your back to tell you that it is time to get a new seat -- a new position in life. I would simply move on.

That's good.... but allow me to ask this question: how would you process/deal with it if struggles did pop up in any of these areas? Would you consider it a trial, a test of your faith, or a "sign" that it is time for you to leave that church?

Remember, Job's life was peachy keen until the enemy went to the Lord God and ASKED if he could affect Job. The Lord allowed it, except not to touch his soul.... Job didn't have full understanding as to why such things were happening to him...and his friends weren't much help....

Dr. MLK said it well here: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

[CurleeDST]

Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT

Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar?

By contrast, when Mary Magdalene met Jesus at the tomb He told her, "Don't touch Me...But go find My brothers and tell them" (Jn 20:17 TLB). Mary once washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair; touch was important to her. And touching Jesus at that moment would have confirmed what she'd seen and heard. This time, however, Jesus asked her to trust His Word and not His flesh; to be willing to testify without a touch.

Sometimes we feel "the touch of God" calming us, strengthening us and reassuring us that He is still in control. The truth is, His touch has often kept us from giving up or going over the edge. But sometimes He asks us to trust Him without the crutch of sensory perception. That's faith at its highest level.

 

[PaperClip]

I find that a struggle is more to have me move on to the next place of comfort. Comfort does not last forever and sometimes you need to feel the spring in your back to tell you that it is time to get a new seat -- a new position in life. I would simply move on.

A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....

 

[envybeauty]

A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....

2 Kings 7: 3-9

The story about the four lepers. Perfect example of how when you are in a place of discomfort, you should move. I like how the timing was staged. The lepers left at twilight (verse 5) and simultaneously the Syrians left at twilight (verse 7). When I am moving, someone else is moving at the same time so that when I get there, I will find the place I am supposed to be.

 

[PaperClip]

A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....

2 Kings 7: 3-9

The story about the four lepers. Perfect example of how when you are in a place of discomfort, you should move. I like how the timing was staged. The lepers left at twilight (verse 5) and simultaneously the Syrians left at twilight (verse 7). When I am moving, someone else is moving at the same time so that when I get there, I will find the place I am supposed to be.

Again, a struggle could be a trap to get you away from a place that is blessing you. The enemy does not want us to be happy, empowered, comfortable (although comfort can be a dangerous thing at times as well).

Jacob wrestles with the angel. (Genesis 32). Jacob didn't leave or escape the "struggle". He knew there was a blessing on the other side of it and he was willing to apply his faith and stick it out.


24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

The prophet Elijah runs away at the "struggle" of dealing with Jezebel (1 Kings 19).

Verse 9 "He (Elijah) came to a cave, and stayed there. The word of the Lord came to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" 10 Elijah said, "I have been very careful to serve the Lord, the God of All. For the people of Israel have turned away from Your agreement. They have torn down Your altars and have killed with the sword the men who speak for You. Only I am left, and they want to kill me."

15 The Lord said to him, "Go, return on your way to the desert of Damascus. When you get there, set apart Hazael to be the king of Syria. 16 Set apart Nimshi's son Jehu to be the king of Israel. And set apart Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah to speak for God in your place. 17 Jehu will kill the one who gets away from the sword of Hazael. Elisha will kill the one who gets away from the sword of Jehu.

Verse 18 "But I will leave 7,000 in Israel whose knees have not bowed down in front of Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him."

Following verses show Elijah finding his successor, Elisha. Elijah ran away from his struggle and the result was that his "job" was given to someone else.

Don't let a struggle (or the threat of one) scare you out of your blessing.

 

[discobiscuits]

Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT

Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar?

By contrast, when Mary Magdalene met Jesus at the tomb He told her, "Don't touch Me...But go find My brothers and tell them" (Jn 20:17 TLB). Mary once washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair; touch was important to her. And touching Jesus at that moment would have confirmed what she'd seen and heard. This time, however, Jesus asked her to trust His Word and not His flesh; to be willing to testify without a touch.

Sometimes we feel "the touch of God" calming us, strengthening us and reassuring us that He is still in control. The truth is, His touch has often kept us from giving up or going over the edge. But sometimes He asks us to trust Him without the crutch of sensory perception. That's faith at its highest level.

re the bold:

another "take"...when the priests took the sacrifice to god, the animal being sacrificed had to be blemish free (jesus is sinless), and could only be touched by the priest during and after the sacrifice until the sacrifice was brought before god for his acceptance and approval (jesus' telling mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to heaven for god's acceptance and approval as the sacrifice). anyone touching the sacrifice before it being brought to god, tainted it and made it unusable. jesus later let his wounds be touched.

i have heard this taught only by one minster/ministry.

 

[envybeauty]

I like this post! !

Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT

Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar?

By contrast, when Mary Magdalene met Jesus at the tomb He told her, "Don't touch Me...But go find My brothers and tell them" (Jn 20:17 TLB). Mary once washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair; touch was important to her. And touching Jesus at that moment would have confirmed what she'd seen and heard. This time, however, Jesus asked her to trust His Word and not His flesh; to be willing to testify without a touch.

Sometimes we feel "the touch of God" calming us, strengthening us and reassuring us that He is still in control. The truth is, His touch has often kept us from giving up or going over the edge. But sometimes He asks us to trust Him without the crutch of sensory perception. That's faith at its highest level.

 

[CurleeDST]

When they walk through the Valley of Weeping...They will continue to grow stronger. - Psalm 84:6-7 NLT

When you lose what you love you go through five stages: (1) Denial - "No, it can't be happening." (2) Anger - "God, why are You permitting this?" (3) Bargaining - "Please make it go away." (4) Depression - Silence and withdrawal. (5) Acceptance - "Not my will but Yours be done."

Whether it's the loss of a child, a marriage, a job, your health, etc. when you turn to God He'll give you the grace to embrace it, grieve it, express it, release it, and go on to become stronger. Sometimes we seek quick relief by releasing it before we've gone through these stages. That's because we fear the process. We've been taught that any show of emotion is a show of weakness, so we stuff it. But we only stuff it into our emotional rubbish bin, then spend all our time and energy sitting on the lid, trying to keep the contents from spilling out. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn 8:32). It's knowing and embracing the truth, including its painful aspects, that sets you free. You must be willing to forgive. But until you come to grips with the enormity of your loss, including any injustice of what was done to you, you are not ready to forgive. When you rush to forgive, you forgive only in part and you're released only in part.

Are you running from pain today? Are you trading it in prematurely for some other feeling? That's not God's way. Jesus said, "You will weep and mourn...but [eventually] your grief will turn to joy...and no one will take [it] away" (Jn 16:20-22 NIV).

 

[CurleeDST]

We should make plans - counting on God to direct us. - Proverbs 16:9 TLB

There must be a balance between faith and careful planning. Yet, talk to some professing Christians and you might think otherwise. For example, talk with some who are unemployed and they'll tell you, "I'm just waiting for the Lord to provide a job." That's fine, but have you sharpened your job skills? And where have you placed your r‚sum‚? You say, "I'm not going that route, I'm just waiting on God." Oh, really? Then you won't mind going hungry for a while. The old motto of soldiers during the Revolutionary War applies here: "Trust God, but keep your powder dry!" Place your life in God's hands, but stay at the ready. You must do all you can to prepare yourself, understanding that the favour you need comes from the Lord.

To walk by faith does not mean you stop thinking, planning, taking advice, and self-correcting. And it definitely doesn't imply becoming lazy or apathetic. What a distortion of Biblical faith! Trust God for your finances, but don't 'blow your budget'. Trust God for safety in the car, but don't pass on a blind curve. Trust God for your health, but don't chain-smoke, stay up half the night and subsist on potato chips and fizzy drink.

Acting foolishly, expecting God to bail you out when things go amiss, isn't faith, it's presumption. Wisdom says do all you can, then trust God to do what you cannot do. Faith and careful planning go hand-in-hand. They always have and they always will!

 

[envybeauty]

^^^where are you getting these?

 

[CurleeDST]

My email prayer circle! It is great.