Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead

[Galadriel]

The question came up that if the souls of those who have died in Christ are "asleep" or can't know, hear, see anything, then why was Christ able to speak with Moses and Elijah (and be seen by James, Peter, and John)? (Matthew 17:1-6)


When you die, you are immediately judged (Heb. 9:27): "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

Christ tells us in Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Death is the separation of the soul from the body. Your soul lives on or exists after death. You are immediately judged by Christ and either descend into Hell or go to Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

The souls in Heaven are still part of the Church, the Body of Christ. They don't lose their membership or spiritual communion with Christ and us simply because they've gone to heaven.

This is called The Communion of Saints-- the community of Christ's saints on earth and in Heaven, making up His Church.

Just as the saints on earth pray for (intercede) one another, we can also ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us.

A helpful article explaining this further:

As part of their belief in the role of the saints as professed in the Apostles Creed, Roman Catholic Christians petition the intercession of the saints.
The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison. Rom 15:30 ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf, James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.
Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need.

Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

How Do Saints Hear Us?

It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit. John 10:38...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.

John 14:10-11Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."

John 1:3What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.

John 17:11And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. John 17:21-22... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one. The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly.
1 Cor 13:12At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.
1 John 3:2Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

The bible never tells us to petition saints in heaven for prayer. Jesus Christ is our Great Intercessor and mediator. Scriputes tells us that Christ came fufill all things.

We are not instructed to pray for or to saints in heaven. We pray to God. Jesus is enough, He came to give us direct access to the Father.

God said in His Law that the living should not seek counsel from the dead because the dead are gone to the next life already either in heaven or in hell.

Hebrews 7:25. "He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, because he always lives to make intercession for them".

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19 (NAS)

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13

 

[Galadriel]

The bible never tells us to petition saints in heaven for prayer.

The saints request prayer from one another (Col 4:3, James 5:14). The saints in heaven are alive (Mark 12:27) and they are present with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8). There is nothing stopping them from praying for the saints on Earth.

Jesus Christ is our Great Intercessor and mediator. Scriputes tells us that Christ came fufill all things.

You are mixing a form of prayer (intercessory prayer) with the role of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and our High Priest.

There are different forms or kinds of prayer:

-Thanksgiving ("Thank you Lord for x,yz")
-Petition ("Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy Name...")
-Intercessory, ("Hi Jennny, I have a prayer request. Can you pray for my Dad who's going into surgery next week?")

Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is Man. He possesses both a fully Divine Nature and a fully human nature. Christ shed His blood on the Cross in order to redeem us and cleanse us from sin, to open the door to Heaven and reconcile us with God. He is the Way, the Light, Life and Truth, and outside of Christ there is no salvation.

Intercessory prayer (asking someone to pray for you) does not infringe upon, usurp, or degrade Christ's role in salvation. You are simply confusing these two things.

We are not instructed to pray for or to saints in heaven. We pray to God. Jesus is enough, He came to give us direct access to the Father.

There's a thread right now in the Christian Forum where you all are asking for each other's prayers. If that's the case, why even ask other people to pray for you? You're just spooked out and don't understand the concept of a saint in heaven praying on our behalf just like a saint on earth would.

God said in His Law that the living should not seek counsel from the dead because the dead are gone to the next life already either in heaven or in hell.

Who said anything about seeking counsel?

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13

I'm not talking about seances, or the Occult, or spirtualism. I'm talking about the Communion of Saints. Those are completely opposite things.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

There is no scripture on asking prayer from the saints in heaven. We can boldy enter the throne of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course we here on earth are to pray for one another. And when we on earth pray for one another, we pray to the Lord God not other saints. That is scriptural.

Jesus Christ is enough. We have access to the Father through Him. He can hear our prayers and He is able to take care of our prayers that we petition to Him.

 

[Galadriel]

There is no scripture on asking prayer from the saints in heaven.

It asks prayer of the saints. Saints in heaven are still saints, and they are very much alive (Mark 12:27) AND the coolest part is that they are in Jesus' presence (2 Cor. 5:8).

We can boldy enter the throne of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Saints in heaven are currently standing right there at the throne of grace adoring God. How neat is that?

Of course we here on earth are to pray for one another. And when we on earth pray for one another, we pray to the Lord God not other saints. That is scriptural.

Asking a saint to pray for you isn't the same as praying to God.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

It asks prayer of the saints. Saints in heaven are still saints, and they are very much alive (Mark 12:27) AND the coolest part is that they are in Jesus' presence (2 Cor. 5:8).



The Saints in heaven are currently standing right there at the throne of grace adoring God. How neat is that?



Asking a saint to pray for you isn't the same as praying to God.

If I ask you to pray for me, you as a Christian will pray to God, this is what I mean.

The dead are the dead. If someone has died then they are considered dead. I don't need to ask my grandmother to pray for me if she is already dead. I can ask you, or my others sisters here to pray. God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. We don't know if they made it to heaven to begin with.

How do we know who is in heaven?

Did God give you a name and tell you to that this person is in heaven praying for you?

 

[natural_one]

I have a friend that is a prophetess that talks to the Holy Spirit as well as the Saints, but the Holy Spirit did tell her they are there for guidance not for her to pray to.

 

[InVue]

Galadriel How are you interpreting we are to pray to the saints via the scripture below you quoted? Thanks

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel How are you interpreting we are to pray to the saints via the scripture below you quoted? Thanks

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

InVue I pointed out Mark 12:27 to demonstrate that the soul exists after death and is very much alive. Mark 12:27 parallels Luke 20:38 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the mountain, though they had died waaaaay before Christ's birth. This further confirms that the righteous are alive after death (Luke 9:27-36).

St. Paul the Apostle also said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)

So what do we have based on these Scriptures?

1. Your soul doesn't cease to exist after death. You live, and in fact, you live forever.
2. You are present with the Lord in Heaven

When I ask another Christian to pray for me (Hey Jenny, can you pray for me?), I am asking a living member of the Church to pray for me.
When I ask Saint Padre Pio to pray for me (Hey Padre Pio, can you pray for me?) I am asking a living member of the Church to pray for me.

The Communion of Saints. The Body of Christ has members on Earth and in Heaven. Do you think a Christian is no longer a Christian or a member of the Body once he reaches heaven?

 

[Galadriel]

I have a friend that is a prophetess that talks to the Holy Spirit as well as the Saints, but the Holy Spirit did tell her they are there for guidance not for her to pray to.

We request the saints in heaven to pray for us. This is different from praying to God in adoration.

 

[Galadriel]

If I ask you to pray for me, you as a Christian will pray to God, this is what I mean.

Exactly. Do you stop being alive, or a Christian, or a member of the Body of Christ just because you go to Heaven? If I can say, "Joe, pray for me." I can say "St. Theresa, pray for me."

The dead are the dead.

How did Moses and Elijah appear and speak with Jesus Christ? (Luke 9:27-36)

Luke 20:38-- God is the God of the Living, not of the dead. All are alive unto Him

2 Cor. 5:8-- to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord

We don't know if they made it to heaven to begin with.
How do we know who is in heaven?

All canonized saints are known to be in heaven . I'll provide an explanation on the canonization process in another post in this same thread.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Exactly. Do you stop being alive, or a Christian, or a member of the Body of Christ just because you go to Heaven? If I can say, "Joe, pray for me." I can say "St. Theresa, pray for me."



How did Moses and Elijah appear and speak with Jesus Christ? (Luke 9:27-36)

Luke 20:38-- God is the God of the Living, not of the dead. All are alive unto Him

2 Cor. 5:8-- to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord




All canonized saints are known to be in heaven . I'll provide an explanation on the canonization process in another post in this same thread.

What proof do you have of who is in heaven? God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. This is my point. Give me one scripture in the bible where God tells us to ask those who are dead and now in heaven to pray for us? Other than that you are just twisting the scripture to make it say what you want to believe or what you have been taught by men.

 

[InVue]

Galadriel Respectively, I still don't get it. And I totally disagree that to God all are alive. If that were the case God would not have told Joshua that His servant Moses was dead.

Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

I don't believe God wants us to be concern with nor communicate with dead souls. We have a job in preparing ourselves (living souls) to meet Him no time to worry about the dead. At least I don't... But I was just curious as to how you could interpret Mark 12:27 the way you did that's all.

God Bless

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

prayer is also worship, so from that aspect praying to a saint would still be wrong, he wants us to worship Him only ...

 

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.

 

[InVue]

I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.

I see and I respect that.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

_____________

 

[Rainbow Dash]

I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.

But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians?

I know what you are both saying but what I'm saying is that it is not biblical. We must be careful not to teach as doctrine the commandments and traditions of men.

God did not say the saints in heaven are praying for us. The bible makes it clear the JESUS CHRIST makes intercession for us.

God did not say ask a saint who has died and is in heaven to pray for you or to even go to them for prayer.

If someone has died, they are considered dead their, their soul is either in heaven or hell.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.

I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.

So, do you mean that Catholics are NOT Christians?

 

[Nice & Wavy]

But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians?

I know what you are both saying but what I'm saying is that

it is not biblical. We must be careful not to teach as doctrine the commandments and traditions of men.

God did not say the saints in heaven are praying for us. The bible makes it clear the

JESUS CHRIST makes intercession for us.

God did not say ask a saint who has died and is in heaven to pray for you or to even go to them for prayer.

If someone has died, they are considered dead their, their soul is either in heaven or hell.

Thanks is not enough for this post.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

_____________

Nope, say what you were going to say please.

 

[Galadriel]

On Canonization...

Honoring heroes of the faith has been a part of Christianity since the Roman persecutions. We've all heard or read the stories about how our brothers and sisters in the faith were thrown to lions in the arena, and otherwise tortured and killed for refusing to denounce Christ.

The persecutions had become so severe (the Emperor Diocletian being one of the worst offenders) that Christians often couldn't publicly worship, and literally had to do so in the catacombs. There, they would give the bodies/remains of martyred Christians proper burial beneath altars.


The early Christian martyrs were honored as heroes of the faith; they were examples of remaining steadfast to Christ even in the face of persecution and death. Since the early Christian Church also believed in the Communion of Saints, they also asked the martyred Christians, who were now in heaven before the throne of grace, to pray for them.

Eventually not only martyrs were honored as saints in heaven, but also very holy men and women. However, there needed to be an orderly process to it all, and so the canonization process was developed to address this.

The first step of canonization is to investigate the Servant of God's life, whether or not she practiced virtue to a heroic degree, etc. If a miracle (usually a healing of a spontaneous nature that can't be explained by science and is of supernatural origin) is attributed to the Servant of God, then the Church declares her "Blessed" (this is beatification).

Further investigation and study continues, and usually there is someone appointed to raise any possible objections as to why the person couldn't or shouldn't be canonized. This is where we get the phrase "devil's advocate" from, because the person with this task raises objections or counter-arguments.

If all is going well, then a second miracle attributed to the Blessed's intercession needs to be verified. If so, then finally the Church may publicly declare her a Saint in heaven. A canonized saint's name is added to the list of all canonized saints, she is given a feast day (kind of like a party day celebrating her "birthday into Heaven"), and is honored as a hero of the faith among the universal church.

Canonization doesn't make a saint, it is simply an official declaration or acknowledgement that a person is a saint in heaven. Also, not all saints are canonized, so not being canonized doesn't mean a person isn't in heaven.

 

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

I believe their teachings are somewhat different. As a christian you go to Jesus yourself but in the catholic faith you can go to a saint because they are blameless in god and ask them to pray for you and your sins. That is what the hail mary, and the hail holy queen is.

Every religion has different teachings that are truth to them. The saints can intercede for you. They are with the father. There are different saints for every sickness and need in god. You go to them and they not only pray for you but protect you.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel Respectively, I still don't get it. And I totally disagree that to God all are alive. If that were the case God would not have told Joshua that His servant Moses was dead.

Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

Again, how then does Moses appear on a mountainside and speak with Christ and is seen by John, James, and Peter?

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Ladies, good discussion this morning.

I say this in love, please consider God's word over traditions and teachings of man.

The scriptures have been provided to us for our good, to make us aware of what God has given us through Christ, and what pleases Him and displeases Him.

Exalt God's Word over all else, even our ownselves. This is for me too.

Have a blessed and prosperous day!!

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I believe their teachings are somewhat different.

As a christian you go to Jesus yourself but in the catholic faith you can go to a saint because they are blameless in god and ask them to pray for you and your sins.

That is what the hail mary, and the hail holy queen is.

Every religion has different teachings that are truth to them. The saints can intercede for you. They are with the father. There are different saints for every sickness and need in god. You go to them and they not only pray for you but protect you.

So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God? So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are. Am I right on making this assessment?

 

[Galadriel]

What proof do you have of who is in heaven? God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. This is my point. Give me one scripture in the bible where God tells us to ask those who are dead and now in heaven to pray for us? Other than that you are just twisting the scripture to make it say what you want to believe or what you have been taught by men.

Actually it's the other way around. Christians have professed the Communion of Saints for almost 2,000 years. The Scriptures I provided affirms this.

 

[Galadriel]

prayer is also worship, so from that aspect praying to a saint would still be wrong, he wants us to worship Him only ...

We ask the saints FOR prayers, to pray for us. We don't pray TO them in worship.

 

[Galadriel]

But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians?

We certainly are! In fact we are the first Christians. The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We put the Bible together.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

We certainly are! In fact we are the first Christians. The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We put the Bible together.

No, the Jews were the first Christians. A Christian means "a follower of Jesus Christ." They were the first to follow and believe and then the gentiles after the fact. They were first called christians in Antioch...they did not call themselves christians, but The Way.

ETA: Also, Jesus said to Peter: "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." The Apostle Peter was a Jew, he was not a catholic. The Jews were the ones that were in the Upper Room. The Jews were the ones whom God used to preach the gospel to everyone, and they baptized them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.