Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead
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Galadriel
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I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP. Had she begun with "This is what my Catholic faith believes ...", it would've been a different story. Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes. As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about her beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way. Hopefully that makes sense.
Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows I'm a Catholic, though we have had some epic threads a while ago
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows I'm a Catholic, though we have had some epic threads a while ago
That is fine. I never saw those epic threads. Maybe it's good that I wasn't around then.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
If I've been rude in anyway, I am very sorry. I know I can get passionate when discussing these things!
Iwanthealthyhair67
Well-Known Member
oh, okay...thank you, I like to go to the word there is nothing wrong in that
I'll add to this below..
I'll add to this below..
The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth," it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does. Think about that for a minute. Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism.So, before someone says in effect that they follow the "truth" and "G-d" and all that as the only truth (remember, based upon interpretation weighted by their tradition whether they realize it or not), they are truly giving the meanings they have been given regarding the subject. The call to civility is in perhaps saying, "oh, that's the catholic viewpoint" rather than that implying that it is not biblical. It can be proven it is, is my point. It would be equally ruder to imply thta another's tradition is somehow less-than the catholic point of view. So, it would be better for one to say, "oh, that' the XYZ point of view" cuz both of youZZZ are basing it upon scripture.
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Galadriel
Well-Known Member
We believe God revealed Himself and His truths to us through Scripture (Old and New Testament) and the extra-biblical teachings of the Apostles (aka Apostolic Tradition).
These two make up the "Deposit of Faith" of God's public revelation to man, which cannot be added to or altered.
Scripture is interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church.
For example, the term/phrase "Holy Trinity" and the explanation of the Father, Son and Spirit existing as three distinct Persons in One God--has a Scriptural basis, but is not explicitly spelled out in Scripture. However when we look at Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church, we know that God the Father is God, God the Son (Jesus) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God--One God, Three Persons--the Trinity.
Likewise with the question of the communion of saints--Scriptural basis and Apostolic Tradition, constantly witnessed to by the Church.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
God bless, I enjoy the Word as well. In fact my current Lent devotion is Scripture reading.
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
Thanks for answering. I have another question. Why do Protestants exclude the Apostolic Tradition? (I would try to find these answers on Google, but the info is too overwhelming for me to sift through right now.)
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
Okay, so I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to SDA, John Calvin or John Wesley. I go by God's Word.
Actually the Word itself judges all things.
Are you telling me that if I decide to go by the Word of God that I'm following man? I don't think so.
Heaven and earth will pass away but not His word. The scriptures are God breathed, inspired of God. In them we find what it means to have eternal life. We will be judged by it. We are told to mediatate on it day and night. We are told to build our lives on it. Jesus said if you hear and do not do when the winds come you will surely fall.
So I will just stick to God's word and not my own ways, toughts, or that of others.
The bible just does not tell us to pray to saints in heaven. That's all.
Come boldy to the throne of grace. You have been given that through Your Savior Christ Jesus. You do not require someone else to do that for you. The veil has been torn.
We have a Great High Priest that can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. He can identify with us. Go in!!
Praise His Name. He is worthy!!
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Galadriel
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Because Apostolic Tradition makes the Protestant position difficult to hold (if not outright contradicts it). So Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. had to axe Apostolic Tradition.
I'll give you an example.
John Calvin taught that humanity was totally depraved, which means that we are so corrupt and evil that we do not have the free will to accept the Gospel. Because we are totally depraved and can't accept Christ out of free will (according to Calvin), God has to do it for us through predestination.
According to predestination, you are already predetermined to go to hell, or heaven. That's it. No choice.
Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church contradicts this, and asserts that Scripture does not support total depravity/predestination, that we DO have free will, and a person goes to heaven or hell based on whether or not they accept Christ.
Apostolic Tradition is the guide and lens through which we must understand Scripture and its truths. I can go back to 1400 AD, 600 AD, 300 AD, 155 AD and see that Bishops (successors of the Apostles) and theologians constantly upheld and defended the fact that we have free will, both as a Scriptural truth and a truth passed down to us by the Apostles.
Why ask any dead person to pray for you (you don't even have the confirmation that they made it in heaven or they ended up in hell)?
Just go straight to the real person: Jesus.
Iwanthealthyhair67
Well-Known Member
Now having read all the way through; I need to add to my comment above, it's okay that you think me rude and not 'civil' ized, I'm okay with that ...but I'm not making an implication I maintain that asking a saint for prayers is not biblical and makes no sense to me in my understanding of prayer...many things can be proven, I would just like to see this proven in scripture again there is nothing wrong in that ...
I beleive that God is more concerned that we keep bibilical traditions than the traditions of men, HE said that heaven and earth will pass away before his word, so his word (scripture) is important to Him and this is what I'm basing my opinions on...
I beleive that God is more concerned that we keep bibilical traditions than the traditions of men, HE said that heaven and earth will pass away before his word, so his word (scripture) is important to Him and this is what I'm basing my opinions on
...The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth," it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does. Think about that for a minute. Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
The saints of the Old Testament and New Testament, and the Canonized saints we know are in heaven. A person is canonized a saint after at least two miracles have been performed after requesting that saint's intercessory prayer.
For example, take both of the people in my siggy, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and Blessed John Paul II.
A woman in India had a large abdominal tumor, and the nuns (Daughters of Charity, members of Mother Teresa's Order) were praying over the woman and asked for Mother Teresa's prayers. The woman woke up the next morning with the tumor completely gone.
The same year John Paul passed away from Parkinson's disease, Sister Simon-Pierre testified that after dreaming of John Paul II she suddenly recovered from her own Parkinson's. Before her cure, the disease had made walking, writing and driving a car nearly impossible. She and others had been asking for John Paul's intercessory prayers.
A second miracle (each) will need to be approved for Mother Teresa and John Paul, and then they will be officially declared Saints in Heaven (Saint Teresa of Calcutta, Saint Pope John Paul II). Their names will be added to the list of canonized saints, and they will be honored as heroes of the faith throughout the universal Church.
Blessed Teresa and John Paul, pray for us!
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying but I also see where the Catholic is coming from. It's all about intercession. No worshipping or bowing down to saints, but intercession.
I can't speak for all saints (I don't know them all), but Mary (mother of Jesus) is certainly in heaven. The way I am understanding this is that just as we may ask our brother/sister to "pray for us sinners", a Catholic will ask Mary to "pray for us sinners". The difference is that Mary is in heaven and our brother/sister is here on earth. The other difference is that Mary is closer to God than our brother/sister.
In my personal walk, I go straight to Jesus, even if I do ask others on earth to intercede for me. I haven't asked the saints to intercede for me since I was younger, but this is an interesting discussion nonetheless.
I'm just listening to both sides right now, and not really "taking one side over another" because it is something I need to meditate on.
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
I'm sure Mary is in heaven but does the word tell us she is interceding for us? We know that Moses and Elijah are in heaven but does Jesus tell us they are interceding for us? Jesus said come unto Me. He forever makes intercession for us and yes we are to pray for one another.
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7
Galadriel
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Often some people have the misconception that because we believe in the Communion of Saints that we don't petition Our Blessed Lord--that's not so. Some of the most beautiful prayers, poetry, and spiritual testaments have been dedicated to Our Blessed Lord.
One of my absolute favorites is from St. Therese the Little Flower who wrote in her spiritual autobiography:
O My God! Most Blessed Trinity, I desire to Love You and make You Loved...I desire to accomplish Your will perfectly and to reach the degree of glory You have prepared for me in Your Kingdom. I desire, in a word, to be a saint but I feel my helplessness and I beg You, my God, To be Yourself my Sanctity!
Since You loved me so much as to give me Your only Son as my Saviour and my Spouse, the infinite treasures of His merits are mine. I offer them to You with gladness, begging You to look upon me only in the Face of Jesus and in His heart burning with Love...
In the evening of this life, I shall appear before You with empty hands, for I do not ask You, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is stained in Your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in Your own Justice and to receive from Your Love the eternal possession of Yourself. I want no other Throne, no other Crown but You, my Beloved! Time is nothing in Your eyes, and a single day is like a thousand years. You can, then, in one instant prepare me to appear before You.
--------
Honestly I don't see the point in calling on anyone else but Jesus. He is enough, He was a living sacrifice, sent by God to die for us. We don't need anything or anyone else, Jesus is enough. I see the practice of petitioning saints as a human tradition, not a Biblical command/example. Calling on the name of Jesus is enough for me.
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Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Well, why not? Do not the Heavenly saints pray?
Even angels intercede for us.
Zechariah 1:12 Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?'
Revelation 8:3-4 And anotherangel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angelbefore God.
Revelation 8:3-4 And anotherangel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angelbefore God.
And of course...
Matthew 18:10 See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
If angels are before God in heaven interceding for us, why not the saints, the members of the Church who are kings and priests?
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
The bible tells us that He has given his angels charge concerning us. It did not say he gave saints in heaven charge concerning us? He did not tell us that the saints in heaven intercede for us. You still cannot produce scriptural proof of this.
Exalt God's word over all else.
Cast down every imagination and high thing that would exalt itself against the knowledge of God. Corinthians
These are the words of Christ
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
The bolded purple is why I go to the Lord directly in prayer, regardless if others are praying for me or not.
*The Word doesn't tell us that Mary, Moses, or Elijah is interceding for us.
*The Word tells us to pray for each other.
My question is:
*Does the "praying for each other" stop when one enters heaven? (Hence, can saints can pray for us?)
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
The bolded purple is why I go to the Lord directly in prayer, regardless if others are praying for me or not.
*The Word doesn't tell us that Mary, Moses, or Elijah is interceding for us.
*The Word tells us to pray for each other.
My question is:
*Does the "praying for each other" stop when one enters heaven? (Hence, can saints can pray for us?)
They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God. If God the Father wanted this possibility for us, then Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament, but He did not!
The word tells us to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, it broke the direct fellowship between God and man. Christ came to restore our fellowship back with the Father. So why would God put another person back in that fellowhship, when He wants individual fellowship with every person.
Where does it tell us that a dead saint has power to make anything happen for us?
Folks in heaven are praising and worshipping God, they are not bothered with us like that
. His presence is too wonderful for words, worries, and our sorrows. (This is just me talking)
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Galadriel
Well-Known Member
I already gave proof. You just choose to ignore it.
Let me break it down logically:
1. Members of the Church are called saints (Acts 9:13, Philipians 9:21)
2. We know that when we die, we go to be citizens of Heaven, present with Jesus (2 Cor. 5:8)
3. Being in heaven does not extinguish a saint's membership in the Church or his union with Christ (John 15:5, 1 John 3:2)
4. The saints ask one another for prayers (James 5:14, Heb. 13:8)
5. The saints, in union with the angels in heaven, worship God and offer prayers (Rev. 5:12-14, 8:3-4)
THUS...
The saints in Heaven can and do pray for the saints on earth.
How do we know?
The canonized saints have obtained verifiable miracles for us through their prayers.
Who, in the 2,000 year history of Christianity has rejected this belief in the Communion of Saints?
Oh, no one...
except some Protestants a few hundred years ago who claimed it wasn't in Scripture--but they have 40,000 different and conflicting doctrines and interpretations of what Scripture says.
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
Galadriel, I know that they are saints and we will one day join them but this does not tell me that the saints in heaven are praying for us. It does not tell you that either. If folks make up their doctrine that is on them. The only doctrine I want is the Word of God. The Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. It pleased the Father to fulfill all things through Him and that's what I'm sticking to. I can't fail if I follow Christ.
Relevation 5:12 does not say they are praying for us. It says they are worshiping.
In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
Revelation 8:3-4 Still does not say the saints in heaven are praying for us.
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand
So I will remove myself from this thread. It has been a long day.
Iwanthealthyhair67
Well-Known Member
I beleive that these prayers are our prayers all the prayers that Lord's people have made...praise go up and prayers go up as incense unto God
Psalms 141
1 I call to you, LORD, come quickly to me;
hear me when I call to you.
2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
Psalms 141
1 I call to you, LORD, come quickly to me;
hear me when I call to you.
2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
auparavant
New Member
I think that, just as we had works to do here on earth in this body, we'll have even greater works we can accomplish up in heaven. Or is it that our greatest works are actually here because we struggle? But we will work in heaven. I don't think the saints are sitting around eating grilled leviathan all day long lol! Sometimes, I tell G-d what I'd like to do to help those here on earth. Maybe we should.
auparavant
New Member
They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God. If God the Father wanted this possibility for us, then Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament, but He did not!
The word tells us to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, it broke the direct fellowship between God and man. Christ came to restore our fellowship back with the Father. So why would God put another person back in that fellowhship, when He wants individual fellowship with every person.
Where does it tell us that a dead saint has power to make anything happen for us?
Folks in heaven are praising and worshipping God, they are not bothered with us like that
Are you talking about locution? Could that not be possible for us as well? But made possible via G-d? I see what you mean.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Yes. We don't lose our free will or personhood in Heaven. In Heaven we are perfected and reflect God's glory and share in His knowledge. We know from Scripture that the citizens of Heaven pray and adore God. As a matter of fact, angels are before God interceding as well.
Galadriel
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