Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

I respect all ideas of religion. Its interesting to me. So I feel no qualms about a discussion like this. It just gives people a different perspective. On the rosary you have metals that you can get of the saints. Its all added protection. You dont put them above Jesus. He is the perfect example for us to follow. But we arent blameless. We have sinned.

Think of it like this. They have big prayer circles in heaven. Thats what I imagine it is like. You dont put them above god you just know they are at the hand of the father. We all have our traditions. Some that others dont understand. I dont believe any are wrong or right. Just different. We all pray, praise, worship differently. Thats why a personal relationship with god is so important. A faith so strong in him that nothing can sway you.

 

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God? So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are. Am I right on making this assessment?

Put it like this because I can only use laymans terms. I am not practicing right now. They are praying to jesus for us. Because I guess you can say they are closer to god than we are.

 

[Galadriel]

Exalt God's Word over all else, even our ownselves. This is for me too.

Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?

There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 40,000 Protestant churches all claiming to go by the "word of God alone and not man" --who's right?

Do you believe in total depravity or predestination? (Calvinism)
Or the opposite, that we have free will as John Wesley (Methodists) taught?
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?
Baptist?
Anabaptist? (No, scratch that...they're extinct now)
Lutheran?
Evangelical?
Anglican?
Pentecostal?
Quakers don't even believe in baptism

Which one is it? How can this be since you are going by the Word of God alone and not man, and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you in your interpretations?

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I respect all ideas of religion. Its interesting to me. So I feel no qualms about a discussion like this. It just gives people a different perspective. On the rosary you have metals that you can get of the saints. Its all added protection. You dont put them above Jesus. He is the perfect example for us to follow. But we arent blameless. We have sinned.

Think of it like this. They have big prayer circles in heaven. Thats what I imagine it is like. You dont put them above god you just know they are at the hand of the father. We all have our traditions. Some that others dont understand. I dont believe any are wrong or right. Just different. We all pray, praise, worship differently. Thats why a personal relationship with god is so important. A faith so strong in him that nothing can sway you.

Because I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, religion doesn't have any place in my life. Most people want religion because they feel it doesn't put any restrictions on the way you want to live your life. Having a relationship with Jesus certainly doesn't put restrictions on my life, but I strive to live for Him and for others to see Him in and through me. So, therefore I am grateful that I am not a religious person.

I can see now that you have your mind made up about what you believe. And that's ok. We do have choices. I won't keep going with this, and I do have to go to work, so have a great day!

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Put it like this because I can only use laymans terms. I am not practicing right now. They are praying to jesus for us. Because I guess you can say they are closer to god than we are.

I see. Ok, have a nice day.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?

There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 40,000 Protestant churches all claiming to go by the "word of God alone and not man" --who's right?

Do you believe in total depravity or predestination? (Calvinism)
Or the opposite, that we have free will as John Wesley (Methodists) taught?
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?
Baptist?
Anabaptist? (No, scratch that...they're extinct now)
Lutheran?
Evangelical?
Anglican?
Pentecostal?
Quakers don't even believe in baptism

Which one is it? How can this be since you are going by the Word of God alone and not man, and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you in your interpretations?

The bible is right. It is truth. I do not go by denominations I go by the Word of God. I am a Christian that believes in the Word of God. I am not trying to add to His word nor take from it.

 

[auparavant]

We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly. We are affirming our beliefs. In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints. She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it. I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken. It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given. Now let me find that prayer to St. Jude.

I mean, lighten up, it doesn't have to turn into a "this is the truth" kinda thing every time because every single denomination is going to differ slightly because much of the au-dela is unknown on earth. Feel me? People asked, people said they were not sure, some people explained what they believe according to their faith etc.. Lighten up. But this arguing and charge that it's not biblical is kinda ridiculous. Same could be said back and that's not the purpose of this forum. That's not needed here...people should be open to express themselves without spiritual mandates. If not, please have them open up a catholic and 7th day adventist one where these issues can be openly discussed without having to defend that ....it's a valid christian faith.

 

[Galadriel]

So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God? So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are. Am I right on making this assessment?

I think what she's saying is that the saints on earth are still struggling, fighting the good fight and still have our faults and imperfections. Everyone in heaven is morally and spiritually perfect, and they are with Jesus and stand before God's throne.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly. We are affirming our beliefs. In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints. She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it. I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken. It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Have a good day.

 

[auparavant]

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Have a good day.

Is that a blessing or a veiled slight?erplexed Well, thank you, I am having quite a good day and I SINCERELY hope you do as well. It's discussion...let's be civil, tis all.

 

[Galadriel]

The bible is right. It is truth. I do not go by denominations I go by the Word of God. I am a Christian that believes in the Word of God. I am not trying to add to His word nor take from it.

This is exactly what all these denominations say, that they go by the Word of God alone and nothing else.

 

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Theres a good read about why catholics pray to the saints if anyone is interested in reading it. Auparavant is right do what feels right to you

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I'm really trying to understand what you are saying, but can't find any scripture to support people asking the saints for prayers to pray to Jesus on our behalf.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Is that a blessing or a veiled slight?erplexed Well, thank you, I am having quite a good day and I SINCERELY hope you do as well. It's discussion...let's be civil, tis all.

A blessing. I am not hear to fight or cause you or anyone problems. I come in peace.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

This is exactly what all these denominations say, that they go by the Word of God alone and nothing else.

I dont know what else you want from me. I do not fall under any denomination. I am a believer in Christ and have accepted Him as Savior. So I am a Christian. His Word is life and in it I find life.

 

[loolalooh]

Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?

There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 40,000 Protestant churches all claiming to go by the "word of God alone and not man" --who's right?

Do you believe in total depravity or predestination? (Calvinism)
Or the opposite, that we have free will as John Wesley (Methodists) taught?
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?
Baptist?
Anabaptist? (No, scratch that...they're extinct now)
Lutheran?
Evangelical?
Anglican?
Pentecostal?
Quakers don't even believe in baptism

Which one is it? How can this be since you are going by the Word of God alone and not man, and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you in your interpretations?

To answer the bolded: Because "claiming to go by God's Word" is different from "actually going by God's Word". I can "claim" to have a 2012 Lexus in my garage but actually have a 2009 Toyota. Another (possibly better) example, is the Christian man who "claims" that God told him to marry a particular woman. However, it turns out, that he wasn't "actually" hearing from God.

The Holy Spirit is the truth. One has to be sure that one is hearing from the Holy Spirit. Frankly, some religions have added practices made by man and not by God, imo.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

@auparavant

you are right it is a discussion and I thought we were being civil...

 

[Galadriel]

No, the Jews were the first Christians. A Christian means "a follower of Jesus Christ." They were the first to follow and believe and then the gentiles after the fact. They were first called christians in Antioch...they did not call themselves christians, but The Way.

I'm aware that Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. While they did not discard their Jewish identity, the Apostles recognized Christ as the fulfillment of OT prophecies and of the New Covenant.

ETA: Also, Jesus said to Peter: "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." The Apostle Peter was a Jew, he was not a catholic. The Jews were the ones that were in the Upper Room. The Jews were the ones whom God used to preach the gospel to everyone, and they baptized them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus established a Church, of which Peter was the "Rock" (Matt. 16:18). Peter and the Apostles were charged with leading Christ's Church and authoritatively guiding and teaching it.

The Apostles appointed successors, Bishops, who would continue their work. These Bishops in turn appointed Bishops to succeed them. The Pope is the successor of Peter.


---------
The name "Catholic" appears in Christian literature for the first time around the end of the first century. By the time it was written down, it had certainly already been in use, for the indications are that everybody understood exactly what was meant by the name when it was written.



Around the year A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a farewell letter which this early bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.



Thereafter, mention of the name became more and more frequent in the written record. It appears in the oldest written account we possess outside the New Testament of the martyrdom of a Christian for his faith, the "Martyrdom of St. Polycarp," bishop of the same Church of Smyrna to which St. Ignatius of Antioch had written. St. Polycarp was martyred around 155, and the account of his sufferings dates back to that time.



The narrator informs us that in his final prayers before giving up his life for Christ, St. Polycarp "remembered all who had met with him at any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."


We know that St. Polycarp, at the time of his death in 155, had been a Christian for 86 years. He could not, therefore, have been born much later than 69 or 70. Yet it appears to have been a normal part of the vocabulary of a man of this era to be able to speak of "the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."

 

[loolalooh]

I'm really trying to understand what you are saying, but can't find any scripture to support people asking the saints for prayers to pray to Jesus on our behalf.

If I understand Galadriel correctly, here's the logic:

On earth, we at times ask others (parents, pastors, prayer lines, etc.) to intercede for us. That being said, we can do the same thing with those (i.e., saints) in heaven.

I use to ask saints to intercede for me (when I was in Catholic school) but I've fallen out of that practice. This topic is interesting, but I need to meditate on it.

 

[loolalooh]

We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly. We are affirming our beliefs. In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints. She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it. I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken. It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given. Now let me find that prayer to St. Jude.

I mean, lighten up, it doesn't have to turn into a "this is the truth" kinda thing every time because every single denomination is going to differ slightly because much of the au-dela is unknown on earth. Feel me? People asked, people said they were not sure, some people explained what they believe according to their faith etc.. Lighten up. But this arguing and charge that it's not biblical is kinda ridiculous. Same could be said back and that's not the purpose of this forum. That's not needed here...people should be open to express themselves without spiritual mandates. If not, please have them open up a catholic and 7th day adventist one where these issues can be openly discussed without having to defend that ....it's a valid christian faith.

I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP. Had she begun with "This is what my Catholic faith believes ...", it would've been a different story. Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes. As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about her beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[auparavant]

@auparavant

you are right it is a discussion and I thought we were being civil...

The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth," it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does. Think about that for a minute. Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism. So, before someone says in effect that they follow the "truth" and "G-d" and all that as the only truth (remember, based upon interpretation weighted by their tradition whether they realize it or not), they are truly giving the meanings they have been given regarding the subject. The call to civility is in perhaps saying, "oh, that's the catholic viewpoint" rather than that implying that it is not biblical. It can be proven it is, is my point. It would be equally ruder to imply thta another's tradition is somehow less-than the catholic point of view. So, it would be better for one to say, "oh, that' the XYZ point of view" cuz both of youZZZ are basing it upon scripture.

 

[auparavant]

I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP. Had she begun with "This is what my Catholic faith believes ...", it would've been a different story. Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes. As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about her beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way. Hopefully that makes sense.

Let me go back to when I first came on here...I'd give exactly what you are expressing..."we believe" and the evil charges I got were ridiculous. Just plain rudeness. So, let's not single her out, please. We all know she's catholic, that I'm catholic, that you are not, that others are not, that Divya is 7thd day...so we should surmise that, "oh, they are coming from their camp ON THE SUBJECT." That's all I'm saying. She has not been rude nor arrogant in this discussion at all. Shrugs.

ETA: Oh, btw, she's a theologian or is on her way to becoming a doctored one. She's already got a degree under belt on the subjects...it's just how it's presented...you ask a question, someone provides an answer. No one is questioning anyone's "salvation" as far as I know.

 

[blazingthru]

Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?

There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 40,000 Protestant churches all claiming to go by the "word of God alone and not man" --who's right?

Do you believe in total depravity or predestination? (Calvinism)
Or the opposite, that we have free will as John Wesley (Methodists) taught?
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?
Baptist?
Anabaptist? (No, scratch that...they're extinct now)
Lutheran?
Evangelical?
Anglican?
Pentecostal?
Quakers don't even believe in baptism

Which one is it? How can this be since you are going by the Word of God alone and not man, and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you in your interpretations?

Adventist do not believe that, individual people believe that, infact most relgions believe if your not following them your in error. Me, I follow the word of God no other religion. Also I am SDA I do not follow the teachings of the catholic Church, I protest the teachings of the catholic church as do everyone that is not in the catholic faith. However, most of the faiths you listed above have some of the teachings of the catholic church which they should not have but kept it in as part of their services. They tag under Protestant but forgot that they were protesting the "Mother Church" I am not offending this is the truth. I have nothing against the Catholic Church but to be honest the beliefs of that faith is very complex and confusing.

 

[auparavant]

I am not offending, this is the truth."

Rather try, "that is the way WE interpret it" so as not to offend. I'm trying to get people to understand this...difficult. It's all in how you present self. We can all definitely contribute but when one charges another from one denomination to another...that is not the way.

 

[loolalooh]

Let me go back to when I first came on here...I'd give exactly what you are expressing..."we believe" and the evil charges I got were ridiculous. Just plain rudeness. So, let's not single her out, please. We all know she's catholic, that I'm catholic, that you are not, that others are not, that Divya is 7thd day...so we should surmise that, "oh, they are coming from their camp ON THE SUBJECT." That's all I'm saying. She has not been rude nor arrogant in this discussion at all. Shrugs.

Please don't assume what I have seen. To be honest, I haven't seen what you are talking about. Don't assume that I "know" she is Catholic already and so when I walk in this thread I should know better. Don't assume that I've seen whatever thread you started with "we believe" and were replied with evil charges.

Additionally, please do not put words in mouth. In no way have I called her rude or arrogant. Frankly, all I've gleaned from her posts is that she is very intelligent and stands for her beliefs. All I stated was that the reason people may be up in arms is the way in which her OP was stated. I compare this threads to those threads I have seen and the difference is: most other threads post a question or an article/sermon found online ... this thread begins with a statement. That was all.

 

[Galadriel]

I dont know what else you want from me. I do not fall under any denomination. I am a believer in Christ and have accepted Him as Savior. So I am a Christian. His Word is life and in it I find life.

non-denominational is still a denomination, my friend.

The reason why I bring this up is because you judge Catholics to be in error because we don't "go by the Word alone," however what you REALLY mean is that we don't go by your interpretation of the Word.

The very concept of Scripture Alone "Sola Scriptura" was created by a man, Martin Luther, in 1517 AD. This concept itself is ironically nowhere in Scripture.

If it's true that all you have to do is read God's Word and let the Holy Spirit guide you in interpretation, doctrine, etc. then why would the Holy Spirit tell John Wesley we have free will but then tell John Calvin that there is no such thing as free will and we are already predestined for Heaven or Hell? Why would the Holy Spirit lead SDA to worship on Saturday but everyone else on Sunday? Why would the Holy Spirit lead Quakers to believe that they don't have to baptize?

The reason is because the Holy Spirit is not guiding these interpretations, and that you can't use "Scripture alone," because what ends up happening is 40,000 different interpretations of what Scripture means.

 

[blazingthru]

Rather try, "that is the way WE interpret it" so as not to offend. I'm trying to get people to understand this...difficult. It's all in how you present self. We can all definitely contribute but when one charges another from one denomination to another...that is not the way.

I didn't say we because its a fact, what does Protestant mean? I could be way wrong here. hmm let me look it up.

Protestant denominations differ in the degree to which they reject Catholic belief and practice. Some churches, such as Anglicans and Lutherans, tend to resemble Catholicism in their formal liturgy, while others, like Baptists and Presbyterians, retain very little of the liturgy and tradition associated with the Catholic church.
In common with Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Protestants adhere to the authority of the Bible and the doctrines of the early creeds. Protestants are distinguished by their emphasis on the doctrines of "justification by grace alone through faith, the priesthood of all believers, and the supremacy of Holy Scripture in matters of faith and order." {2} Most Protestant churches recognize only two sacraments directly commanded by the Lord - baptism and communion - as opposed to the seven sacraments accepted by the Catholic Church.

leaving this thread.

 

[Galadriel]

Adventist do not believe that, individual people believe that, infact most relgions believe if your not following them your in error. Me, I follow the word of God no other religion. Also I am SDA I do not follow the teachings of the catholic Church, I protest the teachings of the catholic church as do everyone that is not in the catholic faith. However, most of the faiths you listed above have some of the teachings of the catholic church which they should not have but kept it in as part of their services. They tag under Protestant but forgot that they were protesting the "Mother Church" I am not offending this is the truth. I have nothing against the Catholic Church but to be honest the beliefs of that faith is very complex and confusing.

blazingthru, my grandma is SDA and she gave me a mouthful about worshiping on Sunday and keeping the Sabbath on Saturday . I hope I haven't been offensive, that's not my intention. You are right that Protestants are Protestors of the Church. However since the 16th century we've seen Protestantism divide into several thousands of denominations, some of which have doctrines diametrically opposed to one another.
.

 

[Galadriel]

To answer the bolded: Because "claiming to go by God's Word" is different from "actually going by God's Word". I can "claim" to have a 2012 Lexus in my garage but actually have a 2009 Toyota. Another (possibly better) example, is the Christian man who "claims" that God told him to marry a particular woman. However, it turns out, that he wasn't "actually" hearing from God.

The Holy Spirit is the truth. One has to be sure that one is hearing from the Holy Spirit. Frankly, some religions have added practices made by man and not by God, imo.

I agree that just because a person says the Holy Spirit is guiding him in interpreting Scripture, his doctrine, etc. doesn't make it so. However the problem is that "Sola Scriptura" or Scripture Alone which non-Catholic Christians adhere to is itself not supported Scripture and has actually led to splintering and opposing denominations and doctrines.

 

[loolalooh]

I agree that just because a person says the Holy Spirit is guiding him in interpreting Scripture, his doctrine, etc. doesn't make it so. However the problem is that "Sola Scriptura" or Scripture Alone which non-Catholic Christians adhere to is itself not supported Scripture and has actually led to splintering and opposing denominations and doctrines.

I'm trying to find the words to pose this question, so bear with me. Other than relying on Scripture, what do Catholics lean on? What do you feel has prevented the Catholic church from splintering into different denominations?