Submission- what does it mean to you?

[Bublnbrnsuga]

We submit to authority figures everyday, whether that be on the job, in school, or with the law, so why is it so difficult for many women to understand the importance of submitting to their husbands? This is why you have to know who you are marrying because even though the man is the head, he may not be wise in many areas of life. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Bible speaks of not being unequally yoked because if you are Christian but your husband's not, who is he submitting to? Are you exempt from allowing him to be the head since he's not submitting to Christ? What if you both are Christians but you don't agree with how your husband is handling certain situations? If he's a good man, he will listen to your imput ofcourse, but what happens when you know in your heart of hearts that he's heading the family for disaster? Are you exempt from submitting to him in this situation? Seems like being married will keep you on your knees a whole lot!

 

[remnant]

Seems like being married will keep you on your knees a whole lot!
IMHO(I'm single), with the help of the Holy Spirit you can do it, because God is the first partner of your marriage! (easier to say than to do!!!)

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I believe in submission. But I will not just submit to any man. I think a lot of women have a problem with submission because they do not understand it, or they marry a man who is really not deserving of that submission, which creates tension. If the man in my life is from God, then I will trust that he is leading the family in God's direction.

 

[phynestone]

I believe in submission. But I will not just submit to any man. I think a lot of women have a problem with submission because they do not understand it, or they marry a man who is really not deserving of that submission, which creates tension. If the man in my life is from God, then I will trust that he is leading the family in God's direction.

Co-sign, which is why we need to mindful of what kind of man we choose to marry.

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

So what does submission mean to you all? What's your definition?

 

[Synthia]

We submit to authority figures everyday, whether that be on the job, in school, or with the law, so why is it so difficult for many women to understand the importance of submitting to their husbands? This is why you have to know who you are marrying because even though the man is the head, he may not be wise in many areas of life. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Bible speaks of not being unequally yoked because if you are Christian but your husband's not, who is he submitting to? Are you exempt from allowing him to be the head since he's not submitting to Christ? What if you both are Christians but you don't agree with how your husband is handling certain situations? If he's a good man, he will listen to your imput ofcourse, but what happens when you know in your heart of hearts that he's heading the family for disaster? Are you exempt from submitting to him in this situation? Seems like being married will keep you on your knees a whole lot!

I'm so glad you asked me about this! I was just talking to my Mom about what believe the ideal dynamics between a husband and wife should be.

I actually don't submit to much authority, but I WILL submit to my man.

I think God created in woman the desire to admire and look up to her husband. I love seeing the man I'm with as a hero.

But I will only marry/date a man I deeply respect and see as a strong, masculine leader.

Everyone doesn't deserve submission.

If I respect and love him, then, I have no trouble following his lead -- because I'm going to be such a driving force behind that leadership.

It's a fallacy to believe leaders are dictators and know everything. They don't, which is why every leader needs a wingman and every husband/man needs a helpmeet/wife/woman.


To me women are more complex than men and have a variety of intelligences, talents, strengths. Our minds are crafted in a way where we can handle many things at one time. All this makes us perfectly suited to be helpmeets.

A helpmeet to me inspires, challenges, and nurtures her man. She is vigilant and is always watching where his leadership is going. If she sees that his judgement is off or they are going down a wrong path, then she has to re-direct him.

Now, this is where the Esther-effect comes in . I believe every woman has to be able to work the Esther-effect (better known as whip appeal) on her husband. Or there's going to be some trouble. You know how Esther stood before the powerful king, and he saw her, extended the scepter, and said whatever you want it's yours? Well, I can't be with a man unless I can whip him. If something is going awry, I need to be able to get him to listen to me and hear my wisdom, whether it's about money, or retirement, or a simple vacation.

There can be no submission to man without his ability to periodically defer to me.

And the husband should know this --- because God has commanded him to submit to the wife. This involves the surrendering or heart that makes it possible for him to be whipped and "extend the scepter" in times of impending crisis.

Leaders are rarely the smartest people in an alliance. (just look at bush). They are the figureheads and the gutsy ones who have to carry the burden of leadership on their shoulders. But they always have a wise counsel at their side (the wife ... and in Bush's case ..Cheney) who's can direct stuff and confirm judgement, etc.

So, the man needs to understand that. It's a great responsiblity to lead and he should be humbled and honored when a woman, as great as she is, respects him enough to put her future in his hands.

In turn, he should respect her and her wisdom as a helpmeet and listen to her advice when she delivers it.

I don't think a woman should abuse this Esther-effect like Delilah did. Or try to always direct the man.

I think the husband as leader and wife as submitted helpmeet is one of the most beautiful dynamics ever created.

They can build powerful alliances togehter if only people knew how to work it properly.

Now, really, what do I know ...I'm not married . But I sure wanna be, and I've thought a lot about this and have a whole philsophy.

It's very idealistic.... so I hope when I'm married I can translate my idealism into reality.

It is indeed difficult to find a man who's leaderhisp and strength you respect and who respects you.

I've been with men who didn't respect my talents ..who were competitive and hated when I outdid them in something. This is someone who did not understand the glory of a helpmeet. Women are some of the most powerful creatures on Earth and if a male leader doesn't recognize that submission doesn't equal to inferioriority ..then that's a shame and he's going to miss out.

I hope 2006 is the year I find my mate!

 

[remnant]

IMHO, Submission in marriage is:

• To Honour your Husband and be respectful!
• To obey him and when I think his decision is not right I'll discuss with him gently with calm, because my husband is also my best friend (after Jesus), if he insists I will pray (a prayer like : "Father I told him ... and as you want me to obey him I will please give me the strenght to do it) and obey him!
• Try to not contradict him in public!

Of course by God's grace my husband will be a REAL c.h.r.i.s.t.i.a.n. and I think this will make a little difference, even if Christian are not much different from other men (my pastor told me so)!

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I'm so glad you asked me about this! I was just talking to my Mom about what believe the ideal dynamics between a husband and wife should be.

I actually don't submit to much authority, but I WILL submit to my man.

I think God created in woman the desire to admire and look up to her husband. I love seeing the man I'm with as a hero.

But I will only marry/date a man I deeply respect and see as a strong, masculine leader.

Everyone doesn't deserve submission.

If I respect and love him, then, I have no trouble following his lead -- because I'm going to be such a driving force behind that leadership.

It's a fallacy to believe leaders are dictators and know everything. They don't, which is why every leader needs a wingman and every husband/man needs a helpmeet/wife/woman.


To me women are more complex than men and have a variety of intelligences, talents, strengths. Our minds are crafted in a way where we can handle many things at one time. All this makes us perfectly suited to be helpmeets.

A helpmeet to me inspires, challenges, and nurtures her man. She is vigilant and is always watching where his leadership is going. If she sees that his judgement is off or they are going down a wrong path, then she has to re-direct him.

Now, this is where the Esther-effect comes in . I believe every woman has to be able to work the Esther-effect (better known as whip appeal) on her husband. Or there's going to be some trouble. You know how Esther stood before the powerful king, and he saw her, extended the scepter, and said whatever you want it's yours? Well, I can't be with a man unless I can whip him. If something is going awry, I need to be able to get him to listen to me and hear my wisdom, whether it's about money, or retirement, or a simple vacation.

There can be no submission to man without his ability to periodically defer to me.

And the husband should know this --- because God has commanded him to submit to the wife. This involves the surrendering or heart that makes it possible for him to be whipped and "extend the scepter" in times of impending crisis.

Leaders are rarely the smartest people in an alliance. (just look at bush). They are the figureheads and the gutsy ones who have to carry the burden of leadership on their shoulders. But they always have a wise counsel at their side (the wife ... and in Bush's case ..Cheney) who's can direct stuff and confirm judgement, etc.

So, the man needs to understand that. It's a great responsiblity to lead and he should be humbled and honored when a woman, as great as she is, respects him enough to put her future in his hands.

In turn, he should respect her and her wisdom as a helpmeet and listen to her advice when she delivers it.

I don't think a woman should abuse this Esther-effect like Delilah did. Or try to always direct the man.

I think the husband as leader and wife as submitted helpmeet is one of the most beautiful dynamics ever created.

They can build powerful alliances togehter if only people knew how to work it properly.

Now, really, what do I know ...I'm not married . But I sure wanna be, and I've thought a lot about this and have a whole philsophy.

It's very idealistic.... so I hope when I'm married I can translate my idealism into reality.

It is indeed difficult to find a man who's leaderhisp and strength you respect and who respects you.

I've been with men who didn't respect my talents ..who were competitive and hated when I outdid them in something. This is someone who did not understand the glory of a helpmeet. Women are some of the most powerful creatures on Earth and if a male leader doesn't recognize that submission doesn't equal to inferioriority ..then that's a shame and he's going to miss out.

I hope 2006 is the year I find my mate!

Synthia, your post was very insightful. Our greatest strength as women is that we work well behind the scenes. Not that we can't have our own life, career, money, etc, but there is an order to things. Some men who don't know better see this as "manipulation."

As far as Esther, every woman can learn a lesson from her. She had skills! I'm trying to be like Esther in 2006 cause I got to get in order and allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide if I'm gonna bag a king like she did.

I think weak men or men who simply aren't ready to lead are threatened by a strong woman. I have no problem submitting to my man and working in concert with him (not under him) is he's the one.

 

[Synthia]

Synthia, your post was very insightful. Our greatest strength as women is that we work well behind the scenes. Not that we can't have our own life, career, money, etc, but there is an order to things. Some men who don't know better see this as "manipulation."

As far as Esther, every woman can learn a lesson from her. She had skills! I'm trying to be like Esther in 2006 cause I got to get in order and allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide if I'm gonna bag a king like she did.

I think weak men or men who simply aren't ready to lead are threatened by a strong woman. I have no problem submitting to my man and working in concert with him (not under him) is he's the one.

You know, I HAVE heard wily women who know how to influence their husbands denouced as manipulative. And It makes me soo mad

People who say this are women-haters. For so many years women have been oppressed and without power that they have wisely acquired power in subtle ways. I have nothing but respect for that (as long as, like I said, ...she's doesn't abuse it like Delilah).

To me it's resourceful and ingenious.

I agree with the rest of what you said. I hope you find your king!

 

[Supergirl]

Great thread ladies.

Synthia, girlfriend it sounds like you're ready to meet your mate--your post was EXCELLENT!

 

[gn1g]

submission to me is to get up under his mission.

Know what your husbands vision and mission in life is before you say I DO.

It's easy to submit when you marry the person that God has for you and when he is "MANNED OF GOD".

 

[JuJuBoo]

I'm so glad you asked me about this! I was just talking to my Mom about what believe the ideal dynamics between a husband and wife should be.

I actually don't submit to much authority, but I WILL submit to my man.

I think God created in woman the desire to admire and look up to her husband. I love seeing the man I'm with as a hero.

But I will only marry/date a man I deeply respect and see as a strong, masculine leader.

Everyone doesn't deserve submission.

If I respect and love him, then, I have no trouble following his lead -- because I'm going to be such a driving force behind that leadership.

It's a fallacy to believe leaders are dictators and know everything. They don't, which is why every leader needs a wingman and every husband/man needs a helpmeet/wife/woman.


To me women are more complex than men and have a variety of intelligences, talents, strengths. Our minds are crafted in a way where we can handle many things at one time. All this makes us perfectly suited to be helpmeets.

A helpmeet to me inspires, challenges, and nurtures her man. She is vigilant and is always watching where his leadership is going. If she sees that his judgement is off or they are going down a wrong path, then she has to re-direct him.

Now, this is where the Esther-effect comes in . I believe every woman has to be able to work the Esther-effect (better known as whip appeal) on her husband. Or there's going to be some trouble. You know how Esther stood before the powerful king, and he saw her, extended the scepter, and said whatever you want it's yours? Well, I can't be with a man unless I can whip him. If something is going awry, I need to be able to get him to listen to me and hear my wisdom, whether it's about money, or retirement, or a simple vacation.

There can be no submission to man without his ability to periodically defer to me.

And the husband should know this --- because God has commanded him to submit to the wife. This involves the surrendering or heart that makes it possible for him to be whipped and "extend the scepter" in times of impending crisis.

Leaders are rarely the smartest people in an alliance. (just look at bush). They are the figureheads and the gutsy ones who have to carry the burden of leadership on their shoulders. But they always have a wise counsel at their side (the wife ... and in Bush's case ..Cheney) who's can direct stuff and confirm judgement, etc.

So, the man needs to understand that. It's a great responsiblity to lead and he should be humbled and honored when a woman, as great as she is, respects him enough to put her future in his hands.

In turn, he should respect her and her wisdom as a helpmeet and listen to her advice when she delivers it.

I don't think a woman should abuse this Esther-effect like Delilah did. Or try to always direct the man.

I think the husband as leader and wife as submitted helpmeet is one of the most beautiful dynamics ever created.

They can build powerful alliances togehter if only people knew how to work it properly.

Now, really, what do I know ...I'm not married . But I sure wanna be, and I've thought a lot about this and have a whole philsophy.

It's very idealistic.... so I hope when I'm married I can translate my idealism into reality.

It is indeed difficult to find a man who's leaderhisp and strength you respect and who respects you.

I've been with men who didn't respect my talents ..who were competitive and hated when I outdid them in something. This is someone who did not understand the glory of a helpmeet. Women are some of the most powerful creatures on Earth and if a male leader doesn't recognize that submission doesn't equal to inferioriority ..then that's a shame and he's going to miss out.

I hope 2006 is the year I find my mate!

WOW this is an EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!! I've never thought about the "Esther effect". WOW Girl! That's STRONG! That's revelation right there! I'm printing this out...lol, you think I'm joking.

 

[sithembile]

This is a very interesting thread, I'd like to hear from more married women on how they are submissive to their husbands.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

WOW this is an EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!! I've never thought about the "Esther effect". WOW Girl! That's STRONG! That's revelation right there! I'm printing this out...lol, you think I'm joking.

I copied it and saved it onto my computer

 

[sithembile]

I'm so glad you asked me about this! I was just talking to my Mom about what believe the ideal dynamics between a husband and wife should be.

I actually don't submit to much authority, but I WILL submit to my man.

I think God created in woman the desire to admire and look up to her husband. I love seeing the man I'm with as a hero.

But I will only marry/date a man I deeply respect and see as a strong, masculine leader.

Everyone doesn't deserve submission.

If I respect and love him, then, I have no trouble following his lead -- because I'm going to be such a driving force behind that leadership.

It's a fallacy to believe leaders are dictators and know everything. They don't, which is why every leader needs a wingman and every husband/man needs a helpmeet/wife/woman.


To me women are more complex than men and have a variety of intelligences, talents, strengths. Our minds are crafted in a way where we can handle many things at one time. All this makes us perfectly suited to be helpmeets.

A helpmeet to me inspires, challenges, and nurtures her man. She is vigilant and is always watching where his leadership is going. If she sees that his judgement is off or they are going down a wrong path, then she has to re-direct him.

Now, this is where the Esther-effect comes in . I believe every woman has to be able to work the Esther-effect (better known as whip appeal) on her husband. Or there's going to be some trouble. You know how Esther stood before the powerful king, and he saw her, extended the scepter, and said whatever you want it's yours? Well, I can't be with a man unless I can whip him. If something is going awry, I need to be able to get him to listen to me and hear my wisdom, whether it's about money, or retirement, or a simple vacation.

There can be no submission to man without his ability to periodically defer to me.

And the husband should know this --- because God has commanded him to submit to the wife. This involves the surrendering or heart that makes it possible for him to be whipped and "extend the scepter" in times of impending crisis.

Leaders are rarely the smartest people in an alliance. (just look at bush). They are the figureheads and the gutsy ones who have to carry the burden of leadership on their shoulders. But they always have a wise counsel at their side (the wife ... and in Bush's case ..Cheney) who's can direct stuff and confirm judgement, etc.

So, the man needs to understand that. It's a great responsiblity to lead and he should be humbled and honored when a woman, as great as she is, respects him enough to put her future in his hands.

In turn, he should respect her and her wisdom as a helpmeet and listen to her advice when she delivers it.

I don't think a woman should abuse this Esther-effect like Delilah did. Or try to always direct the man.

I think the husband as leader and wife as submitted helpmeet is one of the most beautiful dynamics ever created.

They can build powerful alliances togehter if only people knew how to work it properly.

Now, really, what do I know ...I'm not married . But I sure wanna be, and I've thought a lot about this and have a whole philsophy.

It's very idealistic.... so I hope when I'm married I can translate my idealism into reality.

It is indeed difficult to find a man who's leaderhisp and strength you respect and who respects you.

I've been with men who didn't respect my talents ..who were competitive and hated when I outdid them in something. This is someone who did not understand the glory of a helpmeet. Women are some of the most powerful creatures on Earth and if a male leader doesn't recognize that submission doesn't equal to inferioriority ..then that's a shame and he's going to miss out.

I hope 2006 is the year I find my mate!

Synthia

Your post was so insightful, do you know of any Christian books which discuss this, I'd love to read up more about it.

 

[Southernbella.]

This is a very interesting thread, I'd like to hear from more married women on how they are submissive to their husbands.

Honestly? We submit to eachother.

This might not be a popular opinion, but I think the church (run by men) has overly focused on the role of the wife to submit, when the Bible clearly states that we are to submit to one another. I used to believe that when I got married, it would be sooooo hard to submit and obey, and that I would disagree with a lot of things and have to be on my knees (praying ) all the time and that I'd have to silently manipulate the situation.

You know what? It wasn't like that. At least, not as much as I thought. My husband and I are equal partners. I thank God that he gave me a man who isn't all "Me man. You woman. Submit to me!" I know some of them, and their wives are miserable. I see these men who puff out their chests and act like the king, all while their wives are looking all meek and sad in the back. Or these couples who make a big show of submission, so that you know who's running things. It's really not that serious, to be honest. Submission is a private matter between you and your mate. When the wife is truly submitted, and the husband is also submitted, you will see two happy people who are secure in their relationship and don't have to act.

If you have a relationship with God, and you choose the right man, you can be confident in the fact that that man is listening to God and that he has the wisdom to make decisions when he needs to, or that he is man enough to defer to you when he needs to. Also, he should be strong enough to handle gentle criticism, and you have to be astute enough to know when it's the right time, etc. It takes years, and you may never fully be in synch, but that's part of the journey.

I'm not saying that I never do submit, but you shouldn't constantly be at war with yourself or with your husband over everything. And your husband shouldn't feel like he controls you or owns you or that he's better or smarter than you. Really, you should be equals. All the while you're treating him like the king and man of the house, he should be treating you like a queen and the woman of the house. It goes back and forth, constantly.

My main point is that choosing the right man is KEY. If you do that, the journey will be so much easier. Also, a lot of the things you might read about submission will be one-sided, as if you are the only one who should do it. Just eat the meat and spit out the rest.

 

[Southernbella.]

We submit to authority figures everyday, whether that be on the job, in school, or with the law, so why is it so difficult for many women to understand the importance of submitting to their husbands? This is why you have to know who you are marrying because even though the man is the head, he may not be wise in many areas of life. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Bible speaks of not being unequally yoked because if you are Christian but your husband's not, who is he submitting to? Are you exempt from allowing him to be the head since he's not submitting to Christ? What if you both are Christians but you don't agree with how your husband is handling certain situations? If he's a good man, he will listen to your imput ofcourse, but what happens when you know in your heart of hearts that he's heading the family for disaster? Are you exempt from submitting to him in this situation? Seems like being married will keep you on your knees a whole lot!

You are exactly right. If you marry an unsaved man, or a man who is saved but not walking, or even a man with a different walk than yours, you will always be at war with either him, yourself, or God. It just doesn't work.

As to the second part, I'll give you an example. A few years ago when I was pregnant, my husband wanted to quit his job and start his own business. I was dead set against it, obviously, and made that known. He was so miserable at work, and so gung ho about the business idea, that I eventually told him ok. He never quit. For one, me saying yes got rid of the last obstacle to him doing something he knew wasn't a good idea (a lot of times, men count on you to say no, so that they feel like they tried, but they don't have to actually go through with it). For two, he told me that it took me getting out of the way fo him to hear God telling him no. That's how it goes 90% of the time. But even if he had quit, my faith was in God that He would make a way for us. It was one of the hardest things I had to do in the marriage, but I had a lot of peace about it once I said yes. It could have been a disaster, but God worked it out!

 

[Southernbella.]

Ok, I just talked to my husband about this subject, and his opinion is this: Submission is not about who makes the final decision. It's about both the husband and wife being submitted to God so that you know when God is speaking and who he's speaking through. Sometimes God speaks through the husband, and the wife has to be in tune with God to know that it's Him and vise versa. As you talk and listen to eachother in each situation, these things should become clear, and nobody should ever have to play any games or manipulate the other. He also thinks most people come into marriage with the wrong idea about submission, and that each couple has to do what is best for their own marriage, not what they've heard or seen from others.

 

[ROZELIDA_80]

Do you mind posting which verse states that wives and husbands should submit to each other? Just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks

 

[Divine Inspiration]

Um, first of all, Synthia & Lauren both hit the nail on the head. ITA with both of them and there ain't much to say after that! lol

Roz, Colossians 3:18-25 gives what are referred to as rules for holy living in a household. It charges wives to submit to their husbands and husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. If this situation exists, a harmonious marriage can thrive and be

 

[Divine Inspiration]

Um, first of all, Synthia & Lauren both hit the nail on the head. ITA with both of them and there ain't much to say after that! lol

Roz, Colossians 3:18-25 gives what are referred to as rules for holy living in a household. It charges wives to submit to their husbands and husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. If this situation exists, a harmonious marriage can thrive and be pleasing in God's eyes.

 

[Southernbella.]

Do you mind posting which verse states that wives and husbands should submit to each other? Just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks

Sure! In Ephesians 5:21, Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, we are all called on to submit to one another in Christ (not just in marriage). Ephesians 5:22-33 says: 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself,

and the wife must respect her husband.

Not only is the wife to submit to the husband as the head of the marriage, but the husband is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. This means sacrificing himself and giving himself up for her. This is an excellent teaching on that passage:

http://www.expository.org/marriage2.htm

It's not as one-sided as a lot of the books I've read before, and it explains headship and submission and all that good stuff!

 

[Southernbella.]

Roz, Colossians 3:18-25 gives what are referred to as rules for holy living in a household. It charges wives to submit to their husbands and husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. If this situation exists, a harmonious marriage can thrive and be

Exactly!

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Off topic, but lauren, your hair is gorgeous!

 

[sithembile]

Lauren

That was a great article!

 

[CurliDiva]

I'm so glad you asked me about this! I was just talking to my Mom about what believe the ideal dynamics between a husband and wife should be.

I actually don't submit to much authority, but I WILL submit to my man.

I think God created in woman the desire to admire and look up to her husband. I love seeing the man I'm with as a hero.

But I will only marry/date a man I deeply respect and see as a strong, masculine leader.

Everyone doesn't deserve submission.

If I respect and love him, then, I have no trouble following his lead -- because I'm going to be such a driving force behind that leadership.

It's a fallacy to believe leaders are dictators and know everything. They don't, which is why every leader needs a wingman and every husband/man needs a helpmeet/wife/woman.


To me women are more complex than men and have a variety of intelligences, talents, strengths. Our minds are crafted in a way where we can handle many things at one time. All this makes us perfectly suited to be helpmeets.

A helpmeet to me inspires, challenges, and nurtures her man. She is vigilant and is always watching where his leadership is going. If she sees that his judgement is off or they are going down a wrong path, then she has to re-direct him.

Now, this is where the Esther-effect comes in . I believe every woman has to be able to work the Esther-effect (better known as whip appeal) on her husband. Or there's going to be some trouble. You know how Esther stood before the powerful king, and he saw her, extended the scepter, and said whatever you want it's yours? Well, I can't be with a man unless I can whip him. If something is going awry, I need to be able to get him to listen to me and hear my wisdom, whether it's about money, or retirement, or a simple vacation.

There can be no submission to man without his ability to periodically defer to me.

And the husband should know this --- because God has commanded him to submit to the wife. This involves the surrendering or heart that makes it possible for him to be whipped and "extend the scepter" in times of impending crisis.

Leaders are rarely the smartest people in an alliance. (just look at bush). They are the figureheads and the gutsy ones who have to carry the burden of leadership on their shoulders. But they always have a wise counsel at their side (the wife ... and in Bush's case ..Cheney) who's can direct stuff and confirm judgement, etc.

So, the man needs to understand that. It's a great responsiblity to lead and he should be humbled and honored when a woman, as great as she is, respects him enough to put her future in his hands.

In turn, he should respect her and her wisdom as a helpmeet and listen to her advice when she delivers it.

I don't think a woman should abuse this Esther-effect like Delilah did. Or try to always direct the man.

I think the husband as leader and wife as submitted helpmeet is one of the most beautiful dynamics ever created.

They can build powerful alliances togehter if only people knew how to work it properly.

Now, really, what do I know ...I'm not married . But I sure wanna be, and I've thought a lot about this and have a whole philsophy.

It's very idealistic.... so I hope when I'm married I can translate my idealism into reality.

It is indeed difficult to find a man who's leaderhisp and strength you respect and who respects you.

I've been with men who didn't respect my talents ..who were competitive and hated when I outdid them in something. This is someone who did not understand the glory of a helpmeet. Women are some of the most powerful creatures on Earth and if a male leader doesn't recognize that submission doesn't equal to inferioriority ..then that's a shame and he's going to miss out.

I hope 2006 is the year I find my mate!

BEAUTIFUL thoughts!

I am looking for such a marriage relationship!

 

[ROZELIDA_80]

Thanks these verses help clarify it.

And thanks for the link (have not read it but plan to).

Sure! In Ephesians 5:21, Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, we are all called on to submit to one another in Christ (not just in marriage). Ephesians 5:22-33 says: 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself,

and the wife must respect her husband.

Not only is the wife to submit to the husband as the head of the marriage, but the husband is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. This means sacrificing himself and giving himself up for her. This is an excellent teaching on that passage:

http://www.expository.org/marriage2.htm

It's not as one-sided as a lot of the books I've read before, and it explains headship and submission and all that good stuff!

 

[Synthia]

Synthia

Your post was so insightful, do you know of any Christian books which discuss this, I'd love to read up more about it.

** SORRY THIS IS SO LONG***********

Hi,
Thanks! No I don't know any books that deal with this matter.


I've spent years basing my personal beliefs on the following:

1. I am obsessed with the idea of a 'power couple.'

Bill and Camille. Bill and Hillary. Will and Jada.

Alliances where two powerful people work in harmony, pooling resources to maximize them -- love that! want that

Why would a strong man want a weak woman to submit to him? That's not much of an achievement. But if a man can carry himself in such a noble fashion that a strong woman respects him and submits to him...we'll then ...watch out world...because like I said earlier, empires can be built on this type of synergy (Anthony and Cleopatra?).

But how can two powerful people come together without constant conflict and agitation?.....


2. Embracing the male-female dichotomy.

I do believe there is harmony in the Eastern ying-yang philosophy. Even in the actual science of magnetism and electric charges, same repels and opposites attact.

So, I think harmony in a power alliance comes when the man and woman embrace their distinct and inherent natures and understand the power in this.

I know some people are opposed to gender roles. And really, people fall all along the spectrum when it comes to masculinity and feminity. So, couples should really create the dynamic that works best for them.

But I'm very much in tune with the idea of husband as head/protector and wife as nurturer/advisor

I like nurturing.. And to me the help-meet (which is more than a helper. "Meet" implies meets him on his level... as an equal..hence the alliance) is the nurturer who comforts, inspires, advises, solves problems, etc. (that woman in Proverbs 31 is pretty crafty and resourceful!!)

I do believe buried within the woman's nature is the instinct to crave the leadership of the man she loves (not just any man) no matter how strong she is.

In Genesis 3:16, God said to Eve: "Thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee."

I don't see God's edict here as simple punishment ...but an establishment of order. Clearly the serpent capitalized on inherent confusion and lack of leadership in the Garden.

In response, God set the man as ruler. But not by force,...he made it so the woman would crave that ...he said the woman should have the desire for that leadership. This is something men need to understand. They can't make a woman follow them. She has to desire it.

And truly if you don't feel the desire and thrill leapt up inside you when you see that man you chose making good decisions, stepping out on faith and increasing his confidence as a decision maker ...then he may not be your Adam.


3. I find Esther intriguing

Well, I don't think the Bible says enough about Esther.

So, she remains utterly intriguing to me. What I do know is that she saved a whole group of Jews from extermination because she got the king to listen to her. I think it's imperative for all wives to have such favor with their husbands. I'm sure you've seen the fall-out in relationships where the man is not emotionally invested enough to have his nose open properly.

Now the king, her husband, exercised bad judgment. He allowed someone to talk him into signing a decree saying Jews should be killed if they didn't follow customs.

Esther, thankfully thwarted this and got the king to go back on his own edict. And there is some deep revelation in that. One's got to wonder why. The Bible simply says that she found 'favor' with the King. Yes, the book of Esther makes a big deal about her being beautiful...but we'll never fully know how she so captivated the king. She obviously had a good heart by how she felt about her uncle and her people. She was selfless (she could have been killed when she went to the King unbeckoned). This woman had many attributes. All of these surely contributed to what I called her 'whip appeal' but I don't say that lightly.

I know it involves sexual innuendo...but I don't think sex is trivial. The Eastern view of sex is that it's an exchange of energy that is very powerful and multi-layered ( Kamasutra, etc.). I think sex is a very powerful form of communication that involves body, mind, and spirit. I also see it as symbolic of the ideal man/woman relationship. The man penetrates/takes the lead, the woman receives, surrounding him with comfort, warmth, softness. There's power in that. (See how it all fits together the ying and yang of it) And that's a time when men are most vulnerable. If he feels safe and adored in the comforting arms of that woman when his defenses are down, I just think outside of bed, he'd do anything for her.

The fact, that the King says to Esther "What is your request? And it shall be performed" without knowing the magnitude of her request, says a lot about how he felt for her.

And all I know is that if you can get a man to respond to you like that, then it's safe to be in a relationship with him. If he can't listen to you when you have something to say or he dismisses you, then good luck submitting to him. Because it's going to be pretty -lopsided. Power alliance it is not.

Now, I can get attached pretty easily and I really do want to marry, but I have told myself that if I try to work my magic on a man, and I can't quite pull him deep enough into my spell ...then I need to keep looking. I kinda need that in my pocket. It's not some secret sorcery, no it won't be manipulative. He'll know he's whipped (and again not just talking sexually.) .But if his heart safely rests with me (like Proverbs 31 says it should) then my whip appeal should be no threat to him. I'd never use it just to be controlling and petty.

Even though getting him to go out at 3 a.m. in the morning for Chunky Monkey ice cream would be great.

It's just think woman are gonna listen to their men and love them, but men can be kinda unpredictive...so they need to be really, really emotionally invested in the relationship.

** SORRY THIS IS SO LONG***********

 

[Divine Inspiration]

Amen to Synthia's post!

 

[firecracker]

I don't have a problem submitting if the man's talk matches his walk. I do have a problem with males that use that word loosely and don't actively worship God.